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'Cosmic radio' detector could discover dark matter within 15 years

phys.org

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Re: 'Cosmic radio' detector could discover dark matter within 15 years

#11

Post by dventimi »

justlikereddit wrote: post #8
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #4

how long would it go without finding dark matter before physicists would get worried?

They'll just do what they've done for the past twenty years. Adjust the theory to make it darker, lighter and more nebulous. The end station of dark matter is that "we know it's real because computer models but due to a fluke there's no dark matter in the solar system so we can't detect it".

I can't agree with this. No scientist says, "we know it's real because computer models but due to a fluke there's no dark matter in the solar system so we can't detect it." No scientist says, "we know it's real..." about anything. What scientists say is something like, "so far this theory has not been ruled out by evidence." So far, the theory of Dark Matter has not yet been ruled out by numerous attempts to do so along multiple independents lines of observational evidence:

- galaxy rotation curves

- galaxy cluster dynamics

- gravitational lensing

- the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation

- large-scale structure

- Baryon Acoustic Oscillations

- X-ray emission in galaxy clusters

- galaxy cluster collisions

- mass-to-light ratios

That's a tall order for any competing theories. They're welcome to try, of course, but so far none have succeeded.

Re: 'Cosmic radio' detector could discover dark matter within 15 years

#12

Post by sightbroke »

fn-mote wrote: post #10

What is the proposed cost of this exploration? Is this more big dollar physics? Will the device see anything if the conjecture is wrong? I have gotten skeptical of these “could be amazing” researches - I suspect success in academia is PR and funding as much as actual good ideas and it’s hard for an outsider to know the difference (or care?).

> I suspect success in academia is PR and funding as much as actual good ideas...

That is kind of just how the job works unfortunately.

Unless the way research funding changes (I don't know how) you need money to do research and to get that money you need to be good at selling an idea.

Re: 'Cosmic radio' detector could discover dark matter within 15 years

#13

Post by resource0x »

Dark matter is a pseudo-scientific variant of the "God of the gaps". Rather of acknowledging an obvious (default) assumption that the laws of Universe (including all "constants") depend on local conditions, the community prefers spending inordinate amounts of money on nebulous ideas.

Re: 'Cosmic radio' detector could discover dark matter within 15 years

#14

Post by vihren »

resource0x wrote: post #13

Dark matter is a pseudo-scientific variant of the "God of the gaps". Rather of acknowledging an obvious (default) assumption that the laws of Universe (including all "constants") depend on local conditions, the community prefers spending inordinate amounts of money on nebulous ideas.

We do have a pretty substansive evidence that dark matter exists: from the cosmic background radiation, gravitational lensing, galaxy formation simulations, galaxy rotation curves, etc.

Why is it so hard for people to believe that there are some particles that are not interacting with electromagnetism that we haven't detected directly yet? It's not even a precedent, the neutrino is just like that.

I guess the name "dark" matter was a mistake because it implies something weird, when in fact it just means whatever this is, doesn't have electric (or chromo) charge.

Re: 'Cosmic radio' detector could discover dark matter within 15 years

#15

Post by sega_sai »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #4

how long would it go without finding dark matter before physicists would get worried?

I think many people are worried, but unless there is a good alternative theory, the particle is still the simplest explanation. Over last 20 years a lot focus was on WIMPs (weakly interacting massive particles), but those searches ruled out a lot of parameter space that was considered sensible. For axions, people have only recently started to design detectors, so if dark matter is an axion there is hope to detect it. If we will not find anything, it remains to be seen what is the best path forward. In the end the dark matter just behaves too much like dark particle with little cross section, so it is hard to replace it by something else ...

Re: 'Cosmic radio' detector could discover dark matter within 15 years

#16

Post by fasteddie31003 »

Am I wrong to assume that science that is harder to prove will have less impact on human wellbeing? Electricity is easy to run experiments on and prove, meaning humans can manipulate it for our benefits easy. However, the Higgs Boson was extremely difficult to prove and I see no way that it could ever benefit humanity's wellbeing. Now how could humans improve our wellbeing by manipulating dark matter?

Re: 'Cosmic radio' detector could discover dark matter within 15 years

#17

Post by dventimi »

vihren wrote: post #14
resource0x wrote: post #13

Dark matter is a pseudo-scientific variant of the "God of the gaps". Rather of acknowledging an obvious (default) assumption that the laws of Universe (including all "constants") depend on local conditions, the community prefers spending inordinate amounts of money on nebulous ideas.

We do have a pretty substansive evidence that dark matter exists: from the cosmic background radiation, gravitational lensing, galaxy formation simulations, galaxy rotation curves, etc. Why is it so hard for people to believe that there are some particles that are not interacting with electromagnetism that we haven't detected directly yet? It's not even a precedent, the neutrino is just like that. I guess the name "d…

I agree with you. "Dark Matter" (and "Dark Energy") are colorful (colorless?) names that I think helped these theories diffuse into the popular consciousness at a time when popular interest in science was at a high-water mark (remember when "chaos theory" was fashionable?). As I mentioned in another comment recently (it feels like a "Dark Matter" or "Dark Energy" headline trends on HN almost every day), this coded these theories as "exotic" or "weird" as you say, and invited speculation about Dark Matter and even an urge to overturn it among laypeople who equated "exotic" with "tendentious." But, as you suggest, personally I don't regard Dark Matter as all that exotic. We already know about some species of "dark matter": the neutrino is one, and before that there was the neutron. Oh, well. I suppose there will be another episode on HN in a day or so.

Re: 'Cosmic radio' detector could discover dark matter within 15 years

#19

Post by dventimi »

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #16

Am I wrong to assume that science that is harder to prove will have less impact on human wellbeing? Electricity is easy to run experiments on and prove, meaning humans can manipulate it for our benefits easy. However, the Higgs Boson was extremely difficult to prove and I see no way that it could ever benefit humanity's wellbeing. Now how could humans improve our wellbeing by manipulating dark matter?

You're not "wrong" per se as you're entitled to your views, but a fairly common alternative view goes something like this.

Yes, while we sometimes do pursue scientific inquiry for its practical application to the betterment of humanity, we also recognize the value of scientific inquiry simply for expanding the endowment of human knowledge about the world. That is an "innate good". Moreover, if history is any guide, it's sometimes or even often difficult to predict what practical applications will or won't emerge from any given scientific endeavor. In the case of Dark Matter, it may not be exactly the case that we will ever directly manipulate it in any scientific application. However, it may be the case that by grappling with Dark Matter we will refine and deepen our understanding of the fundamental laws of nature, and that will unlock future practical applications. Then there is the topic of "human capital": training people to be scientists trains cadres of people with strong skills in science, math, engineering, and computer science, which is an investment in that human capital. Often, they're well-equipped to go on to fruitful careers outside of their initial field of inquiry, producing innovations that benefit humanity. Finally, if it's a matter of cost, many people feel that the societal cost (e.g. federal expenditures on science) are puny compared to other things which I need not name here. Consequently, "basic science" which includes fundamental physics and the study of Dark Matter, is always a great investment for society.

Or something like that...that's my understanding of how that argument goes. Make of it what you will.

Re: 'Cosmic radio' detector could discover dark matter within 15 years

#20

Post by Groxx »

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #16

Am I wrong to assume that science that is harder to prove will have less impact on human wellbeing? Electricity is easy to run experiments on and prove, meaning humans can manipulate it for our benefits easy. However, the Higgs Boson was extremely difficult to prove and I see no way that it could ever benefit humanity's wellbeing. Now how could humans improve our wellbeing by manipulating dark matter?

Everything is hard until it's not. Invisible electromagnetic waves are invisible (hard) and frequently deadly (hard!), but now we have WiFi, cell phones, GPS, xrays, etc.

Superconductivity is absurd magic and took impossibly low temperatures until they weren't impossible, and now it's driving MRIs, massively improving medical research, and the realm of usability is constantly expanding. Absolute zero was known reasonably accurately for over 100 years before liquid helium was achieved, and superconductivity came only three years after.

It's the kind of thing you can frequently only judge accurately in retrospect.

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