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Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

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Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#61

Post by 7952 »

jxcole wrote: post #9

I don't know if this makes me cruel, but whenever people talk about donating money to starving children in Africa, I always imagine the following: If I were to donate some amount of money to starving children in an impoverished nation every year I could, theoretically, bring some of them out of starvation. However, these children would then grow into adults, and then these adults would have children of their own. The…

Doesn't the injustice of that bother you? You are given the power to weigh up life and death, without any chance of ever starving yourself. Such naval gazing is stereotypical of people with full stomachs. Is basic human empathy such a bad reason to try and help?

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#62

Post by MarkMc »

I don't buy the argument. A $100b space mission is going to have a bigger benefit to the desperately poor than a $100b medical research program? No way.

But then, why does the space program need to be defended like that? People prefer buying big TVs, big cars, big houses instead of giving the money to starving Africans. So why not view the space program as just an extension of that?

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#63

Post by genwin »

Spooky23 wrote: post #45
vecinu wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm weary of these statistics as one can manipulate data to suit one's purpose. Source please?

Do some Googling. My grandparents were all born in Ireland from 1905-1920. My father's father was one of 6 children, my mother's mother 1 of 13. All families lost at least two children each that I'm aware of -- stillbirths were often kept secret. The point is, when you have incredibly poor country, excessive influence of religion, poor health and a high child mortality rate, you have more children, both planned and u…

I suspect that excessive influence of religion led to all those other problems.

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#64

Post by JohnsonB »

drucken wrote: post #14
mseebach wrote: post #11

So the argument that research for the sake of research is worthwhile is perfectly sound, the condescending "let me explain to you how a budget works" and "it's not my decision to spend the money" parts certainly rubs me the wrong way.

How on Earth is that condescending? How is a nun in middle of Africa meant to have even a basic understanding of how a specific government's budgeting and economic system works? I am willing to bet the vast majority of Americans themselves (to this day) have no idea of even the basics so simply explained by Dr Stuhlinger, yet it was a critical part of the bigger picture.

>How is a nun in middle of Africa meant to have even a basic understanding of how a specific government's budgeting and economic system works?

She can't have read a few books on economics? His explanation was pretty basic and nothing that couldn't be found in econ 101 textbooks. He essentially just assume she was uneducated.

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#65

Post by genwin »

MarkMc wrote: post #57
jxcole wrote: post #9

I don't know if this makes me cruel, but whenever people talk about donating money to starving children in Africa, I always imagine the following: If I were to donate some amount of money to starving children in an impoverished nation every year I could, theoretically, bring some of them out of starvation. However, these children would then grow into adults, and then these adults would have children of their own. The…

Good question! Firstly I would like to suggest that even if you can only tackle the symptom, not the cause, it would still be worthwhile - a patient with untreatable cancer should nonetheless get painkillers. You are correct that the number of people in the second generation would be higher than the number you bring out of famine. But if you do nothing the second generation would be even larger still since the fertil…

> But if you do nothing the second generation would be even larger still since the fertility rate of the extremely poor is so high.

Obviously the population must eventually plateau or decline, due to finite resources.

I think it will be extremely difficult to alleviate the cause of poverty in many African countries. It seems that they have a high fertility rate mainly because their religion/culture demands it. It seems just as difficult to get the fertility rate down there as it would be in Utah (nigh impossible unless nature forces the issue).

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#66

Post by jbrechtel »

genwin wrote: post #56
dmlorenzetti wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Bill Gates' wife began pushing him to work on issues of third-world health, this was more or less his argument against it. She dug up the statistics to show that this idea, while intuitive, is not supported by fact. As health improves-- and in particular as child mortality goes down-- birth rates fall accordingly. As we all know, Gates got on board, and now funds a lot of health research and on-the-ground initia…

But what if child mortality is up mainly because of high birth rates? When their religion/culture calls for having as many kids as possible, it causes problems that lead to high child mortality. It's very difficult to change religion/culture.

This talk by Hans Rosling makes a pretty reasonable case for decoupling the notion of religion and birth rates.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/hans_rosling_religions_and_...

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#67

Post by genwin »

jbrechtel wrote: post #66
genwin wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if child mortality is up mainly because of high birth rates? When their religion/culture calls for having as many kids as possible, it causes problems that lead to high child mortality. It's very difficult to change religion/culture.

This talk by Hans Rosling makes a pretty reasonable case for decoupling the notion of religion and birth rates. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/hans_rosling_religions_and_...

Does he explain away the correlation in Utah? It seemed a safe bet that Utah has the US's highest birth rate, given Mormonism there. A search confirmed it. (Sorry I'm lazy on video sources.)

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#68

Post by fragsworth »

This guy has incredible tact, and knows his audience well.

> Ever since this picture was first published, voices have become louder and louder warning of the grave problems that confront man in our times: pollution, hunger, poverty, urban living, food production, water control, overpopulation.

He even took care not to mention climate change, which I assume was in case the reader has a strong bias against it.

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#69

Post by pooriaazimi »

wsc981 wrote: post #47
pooriaazimi wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the same boat. Which is why I believe anyone who (in an ideal world) is seriously seeking to change the state of life in those poor countries should spend their money on creating jobs and "factories". By factory I don't mean silicon factories, but basic needs of those people, be it hospitals or modern agricultural facilities. But, sadly, in reality that can't happen. If you want to create jobs, you first need…

Projects like Kiva aim to develop industry in poor countries: http://www.kiva.org

I'm sure it amuses you to know this site is blocked in Iran (by the government). Thanks, anyway!

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#70

Post by ninguem2 »

jlgreco wrote: post #28
ninguem2 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important things are not what he discusses but what he doesn't discuss. For instance, why the space program is supported instead of other initiatives in science and technology or the connection between the space program with defense and propaganda. On the other side of the coin, he doesn't address the use of foreign aid as a tool of international relations and how it destroys local markets for food production. Ho…

You were doing pretty well there, then dove back into the ad hominem. Who he is as a person is entirely irrelevant, if you want to criticise the letter then criticise the letter , not the man.

I am talking about my emotions, yes. All I can say, if you don't like it, is that I am sorry. But I don't believe one can have an entirely objective discussion on this topic which will arrive at an incontrovertible answer. Most tech inclined people (e.g. HN readership) are positively biased towards the space program. I am not, despite the fact that I fit the profile. I think it's science done for the wrong reasons. In addition, I don't like this guy and I expect to disagree with him and I can't change that.
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