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What my stroke taught me (2017)

nautil.us

61–70 of 75 posts

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language can encode information very densely. There is no point in describing "hate that guy". But it can be very efficient to have an inner monologue of "I hate that guy, but I must greet him friendly, or else I will be in trouble". If you'd just let yourself guide by feelings, you would be angry, or afraid, or genuinely happy to see that guy you hate. We already know how to encode and decode it language, because we…

My point is that "I hate that guy, but I must greet him friendly, or else I will be in trouble" is already being concluded by the brain at the semantic space way before running the language encoder and playing the inner voice. That voice already knows what is going to say before saying it. The brain can extract those conclusions in mere milliseconds and act in consequence, and that doesn't mean being guided by feelin…

Consider the possibility that the brain has not necessarily "concluded" what is being put into words, internally. That the monologue is the conclusion, which we are processing.

So we have two points of view, perspectives, or explanations. Yours is that there is some internal-mind code that is NOT language, which we are able to convert instantly to language to communicate with others. Most people then also have an internal monologue for unknown or orthogonal reasons, while some don't have it, without making any significant difference, because it is something like a side effect.

Mine is that the internal monologue is the thought itself. There is no other, hidden, code that can express the same complexity as the language that we use both to communicate with others and our own mind. That we don't need this internal monologue for a lot of things (consider driving a car), but it's a crucial mechanism for planning long term tasks, solving new problems, and what generally separates us from other intelligent life forms.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this qualifies me as "having inner monologue" already then we're done. It does, but we're not done - we just got the "never" out of the way. I still don't think anybody that literally NEVER has any inner monologue/dialogue could pass as functioning adult in our society today, which I will try to explain here. We did not get that much out of the way though, as there is still vast room between "most of the time" a…

I think you have locked on to the LLM-viewpoint quite strongly. I don't think I can agree with a lot of your presuppositions. Like "the rules are just there to make the pathfinding efficient" and "language is just an extremely efficient encoding of reality". While very interesting I'd have a hell of time debating those issues in this kind of medium. If you take that as your starting point then I do understand why you…

I'd like to say that I'm not "locked on to the LLM-viewpoint", because I have been interested in the inner monologue / consciousness questions since I was a teenager and by pure chance read a somewhat crazy (and now outdated / partly debunked / never really a peer reviewed science theory) book: [The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (1976, Julian Jaynes)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in...). It's at the very least a very entertaining read IMO, but must be taken with a grain of salt. On the other hand, the recent advances in LLM output might have been biasing me. I consider myself also an amateur of course, my knowledge is superficial.

So yes, my framework is that the language articulation is the thought itself, and that is why we (most people) consistently have/hear an inner monologue, or dialogues with others.

> Our own children are completely non-verbal for a very long time and sure, while they won't be winning Nobel prizes at that stage, you can't possibly claim they are incapable of the very same cognitive maneuvering you showed in the coding example (abstraction, generalization, etc).

I don't think a child that cannot yet speak, so typically around 2 years old, can do much cognitive maneuvering, or at least not significantly more than an a great ape. Of course it could be pure correlation, and as we age we learn and simply also learn to use language efficiently. But we also cannot rule it out. Hellen Keller is a somewhat interesting case of someone missing the language learning stage and then also essentially not developing a "consciousness" as we understand it.

> the question "What happens before the inner monologue? A deeper level of monologue?"

I do not have an answer. I'm afraid that there isn't one, just like there is an answer to "How do LLMs work?", beyond some technicalities about the core operations, matrices, weightings and whatnot. I think there is no indication that this is recursive in any sense. I cannot find the words to describe it, ironically, but it might be like other systems in nature which seem chaotic in detail and only seem ordered when you look at the whole.

If you allow me to indulge: maybe we are too deep and lost in the simulation now, there are no more curtains to peel back. A mask cannot look at who is behind itself. Is there really another hidden "code" inside our brain that could express the last two sentences more efficiently? Perhaps there is, and our mostly "outer" language simply cannot express it, because the inner hidden language is just much better. Or perhaps it's the other way 'round.

Edit: BTW you also didn't answer "when was the last time you imagined yourself or someone else talking in your head", and I am genuinely interested in the answer - for armchair science!

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#63
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that "I hate that guy, but I must greet him friendly, or else I will be in trouble" is already being concluded by the brain at the semantic space way before running the language encoder and playing the inner voice. That voice already knows what is going to say before saying it. The brain can extract those conclusions in mere milliseconds and act in consequence, and that doesn't mean being guided by feelin…

Consider the possibility that the brain has not necessarily "concluded" what is being put into words, internally. That the monologue is the conclusion, which we are processing. So we have two points of view, perspectives, or explanations. Yours is that there is some internal-mind code that is NOT language, which we are able to convert instantly to language to communicate with others. Most people then also have an int…

Not the poster you replied to. But maybe I should quickly define what I mean by inner monologue: thoughts in word form, utilizing language. I defined it this way because this is what most people seem to mean when they talk about an inner monologue.

In a sense, I do have an inner monologue (or dialogue, or multilogue), it's just not done in words unless I need to crystalize my thoughts into something I can communicate with others. My internal method of thinking is a language; it's just a non-verbal language that's only "spoken" by one person on Earth: me.

I am quite capable of planning long term tasks, solving novel problems, performing abstract thinking, etc., without using words at all. It does, however, mean I need to maintain a huge amount of state in my head. Serializing that state to words is very cumbersome for me, but extremely useful to help reduce the amount of state I need to keep in mind, so it's a tradeoff between spending the annoyingly long amount of time needed to linearize and serialize my thoughts to the outside world, and having more resulting mental bandwidth to deal with the more critical parts of a problem at the moment.

Story time... After I lost my language after the stroke, my mind seemed to have been shattered, like an ancient empire falling, breaking up into numerous squabbling kingdoms. I became aware of the different functions of my brain in a new way. In terms of language, to this day when I communicate with others, it feels like I think in my internal non-verbal language, then sort of toss it over the wall to another part of my brain which converts that to words.

When I was first re-learning how to communicate with others, I managed to "talk" that other part of my brain into round-tripping the translations. So I'd think a thought, the translator part would convert it to words, then the sister part would convert the words back to my own nascent internal language. My own internal language developed alongside my ability to communicate with others via this feedback loop.

I'd never heard of generative adversarial networks at the time, but that's basically what I was doing. Before managing to convince that part of my brain to create the feedback loop, I had barely managed to regain any words at all. Afterward, my vocabulary began recovering rapidly even as it became more feasible to express complex concepts in my new internal way of thinking.

One thing this GAN-style behavior made clear to me, was that language was a highly useful error-correction method. Each time the round trip garbled meaning in various ways, it clarified the sloppiness in my new thought style, shining a light on it that made it easier to see just how much further I needed to go to regain my ability to read, write, and speak.

Maybe if I'd had help regaining my language, I wouldn't have had to develop a unique internal "language" to be able to express thoughts in, and I'd natively think in words again. Hard to say. All I know is I was desperate to be able to think again, and I wasn't willing to wait until I regained my words, especially given how slow the process was initially.

So, only going from my own personal experiences, I wonder if internal language partially "evolved" as a means of thought error-correction, to review what one was about to say or do before saying or doing it. It's also obviously useful for working with others, and our ability to transfer knowledge even across centuries is remarkably useful, but I also wonder if inner monologue has been maintained in so much of the population even for internal thoughts because that error-correction allows easier self-reflection of our thought process?

Even I sometimes will say aloud the details of the problem I'm currently trying to solve as a means to double-check that I'm not missing anything obvious. I don't do it often, but it can help when I'm stuck. If the translator part of my brain can't figure out a good way to translate my thoughts into words, it's an excellent sign I'm overthinking the problem and need to refocus on less abstruse details.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I often argue with myself anyway. > I am constantly in “arguments” with my own assumptions. This is usually what best describes "having an internal monologue". Do you ever imagine yourself or other people saying hypothetical things?

people describe it as some constant flow with an actual voice. I do not have that, and I don’t feel a need to conjure visions of arguing with myself to do so - that sounds weird to me. I don’t really know how else to describe it.

I don't hear a voice either. Or imagine one. I can just talk to myself. Maybe we're all weird.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I often argue with myself anyway. > I am constantly in “arguments” with my own assumptions. This is usually what best describes "having an internal monologue". Do you ever imagine yourself or other people saying hypothetical things?

people describe it as some constant flow with an actual voice. I do not have that, and I don’t feel a need to conjure visions of arguing with myself to do so - that sounds weird to me. I don’t really know how else to describe it.

To give some insight into what "monologue people" perceive: I don't exactly hear an actual voice, that would drive me crazy. I cannot do good multitasking with anything verbal going on. If someone is talking to me, I cannot do anything else that also requires my inner monologue well. I can drive a car, which doesn't require my inner monologue, and have a conversation with the passenger, but I cannot program or plan something while someone is talking into my ear all the time.

But the monologue is there, almost uninterrupted. It's just that very often I don't notice it. I have a hard time ignoring actual voices, unless there is some sea of other background noises or chatter.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#66

I had gone blind in my right eye. There was one person standing before me at the reception in the emergency room arguing with the receptionist because he did not have health insurance (before the ACA). I remember thinking about a post card I saw in Powell's Books on Hawthorn St. in Portland Oregon out of the corner of my eye years earlier that said (paraphrasing) "Be thankful for our enemies, for they give us the opp…

How do you believe calmness helped you? I am interested in that.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just FYI it’s pretty rude/insulting and not interesting to dismiss someone’s shared experience based on nothing but your own armchair feelings, and even moreso to concede if the person is telling the truth (how on earth could a person be lying or mistaken about this?) that they couldn’t be a functioning adult. It’s honestly quite a narcissistic view that someone could not possibly think differently than you, and dism…

I know that it can be perceived so, which is why I prefaced with "I know it's bad to say this - like telling someone who is ill that they are not - but I cannot believe that...". I am only engaging with commenters who are interested in the conversation, and I'm NOT trying to put anyone down. I just want to get to know more exact meanings and nuances of "I don't have an internal monologue".

If I said "gosh, I can't believe you can actually think at a human speed, having to use words for everything! It's like having to speak out loud when you're reading, so slow! Have you been diagnosed by a professional on how to deal with this obvious handicap?" it would be pretty insulting, yes? Even if I said I wasn't trying to put someone down, because the implicit assumptions baked in to the very statements themselves.

All I can say is, as someone who also does not have an internal monologue, and can easily and happily go days without thinking in words (which is very, very different than not thinking at all), please just accept as a given that people like me exist, we're fine, do not feel like we have any deficits, and it's exceedingly frustrating to come across comments like yours whenever the subject comes up, because of the raw arrogance of it all. I can completely and honestly believe that you have a rich, engaging internal life, even if the quantity of words involved would drive me mad, because we're different people with different thinking styles. All I ask is for the same respect in return. If we can start there, then we can have a real conversation, which could be fun. I know that when I first learned that 'internal monologue' wasn't just a literary, poetically-descriptive term, but that people actually heard voices/words in their heads while thinking, it utterly floored me. That I'd made it to college without knowing this really threw me for a loop, and made me think about what other seemingly-core differences in cognition are out there. It really is a fascinating subject to think about.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have locked on to the LLM-viewpoint quite strongly. I don't think I can agree with a lot of your presuppositions. Like "the rules are just there to make the pathfinding efficient" and "language is just an extremely efficient encoding of reality". While very interesting I'd have a hell of time debating those issues in this kind of medium. If you take that as your starting point then I do understand why you…

I'd like to say that I'm not "locked on to the LLM-viewpoint", because I have been interested in the inner monologue / consciousness questions since I was a teenager and by pure chance read a somewhat crazy (and now outdated / partly debunked / never really a peer reviewed science theory) book: [The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (1976, Julian Jaynes)]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th…

Oh, the Bicameral Mind, how cool would it be if that was real. I also read it.

For armchair science: I cannot remember for the life of me. I never imagine scenes like that. Is that strange for you? How is that for you? Do you often do that? Is it like an entire scene playing out like a movie?

Ah. Food for thought. Have a good weekend.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#69
post #27
post #15

My father recently passed, and on the way there had 3 strokes (he's been smoking since he was 8). The unnerving thing about his first stroke recovery is that as the brain healed, his personality seemed to change. My dad is friends with everyone, my mental picture is of him telling a fascinating story while everyone listens. For a few months, the confident man I'd known for 40 years became like a teenager, quiet and t…

My mom's had some personality changes since coming down with dementia. For one, she doesn't attend church anymore. Church is really close by; with assistance she could walk or be driven there easily. She just doesn't want to go. She'd been a Catholic all her life, and was just suddenly tired of all that Catholic stuff, in a way I thought I'd never see her be.

My mom's personality changed a lot with dementia. After a couple of months she forgot she was a heavy smoker. Watching documentaries and sitcoms pre-dementia was replaced with aimless watch anything but not really caring about it at all. She lost a lot of self restraint so it was hard to go out to places because she'd make an insulting remark about a stranger. We tried anyway. This was all after she forgot who her children were so we were getting pretty late stage.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to say that I'm not "locked on to the LLM-viewpoint", because I have been interested in the inner monologue / consciousness questions since I was a teenager and by pure chance read a somewhat crazy (and now outdated / partly debunked / never really a peer reviewed science theory) book: [The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (1976, Julian Jaynes)]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th…

Oh, the Bicameral Mind, how cool would it be if that was real. I also read it. For armchair science: I cannot remember for the life of me. I never imagine scenes like that. Is that strange for you? How is that for you? Do you often do that? Is it like an entire scene playing out like a movie? Ah. Food for thought. Have a good weekend.

Yes, for me it sounds very foreign, to not to have it.

I almost constantly have fragments of scenes playing out, when I'm not doing something that requires concentration. Either myself telling something, ar asking, at someone or myself. Sometimes reversed. As I said, I think it's mostly fragments, or there is some kind of "fast forward" where the conclusion is articulated prematurely, and I suppose the exercise has reached its purpose.

You have good weekend and holidays too!

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