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Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

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Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#71

Post by enaaem »

ordu wrote: post #63
groos wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate getting startled, even when I realize right away that there is nothing to worry about. But the physiological effects, once set in motion, carry on. My heart seems to skip a beat and then rev up to a high rate and it's uncomfortable, taking some time to come back down to normal. Some years ago, I discovered a technique to suppress the effect of being startled. I just breathe in sharply, using mostly my diagphra…

> I wonder if this is also using the vagus nerve to suppress being startled? I don't know about vagus nerve, but I can propose a different explanation. Emotions can change the state of your body, your brain feels the state and triggers emotions. It can become a self-reinforcing loop. In particular, diaphragm contractions or tension can be such a state. For example, I have sometimes issues with getting rid of anxiety,…

This is btw the whole idea behind Vipassana. The idea is that most of your suffering comes from your unconscious reaction to bodily sensations and you can train yourself to become more aware and equanimous.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#72

Post by FrojoS »

timewizard wrote: post #69
nikitoci wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s dangerous, since hyperventilating removes co2 from your blood, and raised co2 level is primary trigger for the urge to breathe reflex. It may feel better to hyperventilate and dive longer but you’re risking suddenly blacking out. I’m a free diver and this is one of the first things you are trained not to do, as well as never to dive alone, for safety reasons.

Ah the wisdom has changed. This was more often taught when I was younger, which yes, was quite a while ago. The warnings given then were don't go for depth with this method, exhale occasionally while underwater, and manage your breath again immediately on the surface.

Interesting. Got a good source? I should definitely look into this again.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#73

Post by rixed »

dukeofdoom wrote: post #52
collingreen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best part about true things is they are still true whether you believe and understand them or not. Seeking truth isn't limited by your ability to understand everything.

I'm not sure about that. If there's no conscious mind to interpret something, can anything possibly be True? Or is it just information.

I believe by "true things" what is meant is "as good as a real world experience as one can get", rather than "logically sound".

It is certainly reasonable to argue about whether logic stands on its own without an observer, but not to doubt that there is a true world out there to be experienced.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#74

Post by crummyglow »

jkingsman wrote: post #2

I've had this described to me as basically the combination of neuro+psychological effects of hyperventilation (respiratory alkalosis) in a peaceful/positive environment (as opposed to anxiety-attack-driven or etc.), plus the meditative effects of deep breathing, plus the meditative/brain-entrainment effects of rhythmic movement of a major central/core muscle (diaphragm). Together, those often cause euphoria, altered…

>Together, those often cause euphoria, altered states of consciousness, and cognitive shifts not too far off from psychedelics.

It must vary between people, because no matter the environment if I breath too eager, whether on purpose or accidentally (like working out) it just becomes really hard to think, everything starts to tingle and all my muscles lock up. A very not-fun time. Also dangerous with weights.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#75

Post by sergioisidoro »

Personal anecdote: I do freediving, so CO2 tolerance training is common, and I've done it on and off. Basically you do breath holds to train your body to get used to high leves of CO2.

I've found that brief high C02 levels are very good for activation, and to get out of a lethargic state. I don't know if a mix of cortisol and vasoconstriction and dive reflex triggered by the CO2, but I feel like it's a tool I have on my toolbox whenever I need to so something difficult or that requires a lot of will power.

It's not for everyone tho, because many people can't get past the initial urge to breathe, and would probably freak out with the first involuntary contraction.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#76

Post by eigenschwarz »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #46
maebert wrote: post #33

i am a (former) neuroscientist and breathwork facilitator (mostly conscious connected breath) — AMA. the effect of decreased co2 concentration on vasoconstrictions (and also alkalosis-induced tetany, ie your muscles cramping, which happens a lot during breathwork) are well known [1], but i've never seen them quantified in such a clear way. It's cool to see mainstream science give it a closer look! [1] for anyone inte…

As a Neuroscientist and breathwork facilitator, do you think there is any harm in intentional apnea (e.g. free diving, static holds, ect)? At what point does cell damage (not necessarily death), kick in? As someone involved in these sports, I operate under the assumption that any damage would kick in after loss of consciousness. For example, if I hold my breath, even for 4 or 5 minutes but dont pass out, that is an i…

Does this help? I am a physicist with interest in these subjects and have always been wary of breathwork because of tetany and the following studies. What do experts closer to this field make of these?

[1] "Brain Damage in Commercial Breath-Hold Divers" https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

[2] "Do elite breath-hold divers suffer from mild short-term memory impairments?" https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/apnm-2017-0245

Ref. [2] is especially concerning to me in pushing in any sort of static apnea training or breathwork: "The time to complete the interference card test was positively correlated with maximal static apnea duration (r = 0.73, p < 0.05) and the number of years of breath-hold diving training (r = 0.79, p < 0.001)."

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#77

Post by FrojoS »

underdeserver wrote: post #47
dluan wrote: post #41

As a surfer, I've done a few breathwork classes even though I've never been close to being in conditions that really needed it. There is a tremendous amount of training that you can do to basically change your conscious thoughts in an instant. Going from 180bpm heart rate and anxious panic to a static breath hold for up to a minute while being ragdolled and disoriented, is basically ego death. If you watch some gnarl…

For someone with no connection to surfing at all, could you elaborate? Why is surfing special, or different from other sports, in needing to control your breathing?

You can somewhat simulate it yourself.

Lie down, do a push up, then jump up to your feet, upright, arms raised (Burpee). Repeat in rapid succession twelve times, then immediately shut your mouth and close your nose with your hand. Hold it. Close your eyes and imagine you are under water and don‘t know how long it will take till you can resurface.

You will feel an immediate urge to breath, a very unpleasant feeling in your throat, nose, ears, etc, and an immediate feeling of panic. That feeling is AFAIK caused by heightened CO2 levels [1].

Imagine trying to fight your way to the surface, in a panic, but the turbulence of the wave is too strong and keeps you down. Instead you have to accept the feeling of panic without acting on it, converse your energy while being rag dolled and pounded, trying not to dislocate your joints, keep or regain your sense of orientation, and wait for the moment that the turbulence subsides to the point it is possible to surface again.

You have little control over when that moment finally comes. And while seconds start to feel like eternities you might start telling yourself to never go surfing again. As time drags on, your resolve increases, to the point you might act on it once, and if, you finally resurface.

[1] I have no expertise but this is what I was told and this source seems to somewhat confirm https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3138667/#:~:text=In...

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#78

Post by timewizard »

FrojoS wrote: post #72
timewizard wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah the wisdom has changed. This was more often taught when I was younger, which yes, was quite a while ago. The warnings given then were don't go for depth with this method, exhale occasionally while underwater, and manage your breath again immediately on the surface.

Interesting. Got a good source? I should definitely look into this again.

The people around the pool and lake where I grew up? From what I'm reading while searching it seems that "hyperventilate" is probably a bad term for the type of breathing I was shown. We wouldn't do it until we felt a conscious change like dizziness but more like 4 to 8 good deep full and fast breaths before holding, enough to notice, but not so much that it presented the dangers I'm now reading about.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#79

Post by meindnoch »

laserlight wrote: post #68
meindnoch wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. You aren't supposed to be hypoxic when using nitrous. You take a half-breath of air, and then breathe in the n2o.

So, you get half the oxygen needed and somehow doing so doesn't cause hypoxia, which means “deficiency in the amount of oxygen reaching the tissues”?

You don't get half the oxygen. You get as much oxygen as you would during normal calm breathing, which is pretty shallow. Basically, you take a normal breath, which is about 50% lung volume, and then fill your lung up to max capacity with n2o.

But you know what? Pulse oximeters are pretty cheap nowadays. Try it for yourself.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#80

Post by prox »

onemoresoop wrote: post #7
bentt wrote: post #5

I got into doing this Wim Hof breathing exercise a few years ago and it was definitely intense. Unsure if this is related but sounds similar. https://youtu.be/0BNejY1e9ik?si=kgBBUhqMe9HWaKCG

Intense but did you get any lasting change from it? Are you still practicing? I did some breathwork and disturbed something with my natural breathing pattern. For about two weeks I had insomnias and was constantly lightheaded. Im reluctant to try again..

I used to teach various pranayama’s (yogic breathwork) and we tend to go easy, especially if you are not going to go into a 3 year seclusion as a lifetime yogi.

All practices were 3 breaths only. If you really enjoyed one or the other, you can do them a few times a day.

Because exactly as you say, you don’t want to disturb the natural pattern. If you have an unhealthy breathing pattern, the idea is that yoga, rest and relaxation will take care of the rest.

Beyond that we are not doctors, so if I noticed something peculiar with someone’s breathing, or it came up, I would direct them to a professional.

I never liked the Hof method, it works on the wrong side of the nervous system for me, as it’s too activated. I feel it’s good perhaps if you got to do something stressful and you need resilience.

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