Earlier quoted context omitted.
The smartest thing Microsoft could do, imho, is cancel all their billion UI variants, bless Avalonia and throw all the saved millions of dollars to them. Then in one instant they get a real cross-platform UI framework, with a competent team as a free bonus. It is actually incredibly compelling, the cross-platform .NET offering. If you look at all the Go, Python and Rust UI toolkits, none hits the bar. They invariably…
Linux distros are rewriting their installers and partition tools in web technologies these days. Hard to believe but the direction is clear, no one cares about local UI toolkits.
The Atari 1200XL fiasco
71–80 of 88 posts
Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a good comment. I guess I don't attach the same weight to the CISC/RISC thing you do, but I agree that it's certainly true that the big "the real problem was x " pronouncements are insufficient to explain what really happened. (but are nevertheless quite interesting when they come from the parties involved!)
Arguably there is one company that did manage to make the transition from 8 bit hobby home computing and gaming. Apple. The Apple II was a contemporary, in fact a predecessor of all these systems. So, what did they do right, or what went right for them, that enabled them to make it? I suspect it was the penetration of the Apple II into education and business that helped make it possible, but suppose Steve Jobs had be…
Fast forward a few years, and the Apple II was still very usable and competitive, with RAM expansion options up to 128k, higher res graphics, and 80 column text, while still supporting the same software.
One other thing is that the Apple II was wildly profitable. It had no custom chips, just cleverly used commodity chips and some ROMs. This includes the fast and cheap disk system.
Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a good comment. I guess I don't attach the same weight to the CISC/RISC thing you do, but I agree that it's certainly true that the big "the real problem was x " pronouncements are insufficient to explain what really happened. (but are nevertheless quite interesting when they come from the parties involved!)
Arguably there is one company that did manage to make the transition from 8 bit hobby home computing and gaming. Apple. The Apple II was a contemporary, in fact a predecessor of all these systems. So, what did they do right, or what went right for them, that enabled them to make it? I suspect it was the penetration of the Apple II into education and business that helped make it possible, but suppose Steve Jobs had be…
Desktop publishing.
The Macintosh/LaserWriter cash cow absolutely dominated desktop publishing for a very, very, very long time.
This gave Apple access to enterprise accounts that other computer companies did not have.
Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
It was. Wasn't the Atari's CPU 1.79MHz (3.58Mhz NTSC clock/3)? The NTSC C64 was close to 1Mhz. But it's worse: The C64's CPU was also slowed down by the VIC-II every 8 scan lines to fetch video data, and slowed down additionally if sprites were enabled. The PAL C64 was actually slightly under 1Mhz but you had a lot more VBlank time to do stuff.
Atari's CPU was slower in PAL countries, but I don't recall what the speed was. (speed based on something in PAL like the NTSC color clock, but I don't recall what it was called)
Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I suspect it was the penetration of the Apple II into education and business that helped make it possible I don't know how much it moved the needle but it was astonishing how much schools and home users - parents whose kids used the machines at school - were willing to pay for an Apple II well after it was a technically obsolete machine. It definitely helped them to some extent. (don't get me wrong, I love those ma…
here's a guess: text was sharp on an Apple II with a decent monitor. font shapes were good. no matter how good graphics were on the C64 & Ataris, in comparison, text was always blocky & amateur looking. Tandy did better on this front, but it wasn't enough for them. pretty sure this is the same reason why the Amiga & the ST didn't make more inroads — people looked at them alongside the Mac & technical considerations w…
Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For their time they were very comparable We can say that now, but it's worth remembering the Atari 8 bit computers came out over two years before the C64. Not such a big gap in computing today, but back then it was a lot. ex-Atari people talking about what they could have done better is always an interesting youtube phenomenon. (as with, for example, ex-Sun people, you hear a lot of theories but you never encounter…
> ex-Atari people talking about what they could have done better As someone super into retro computing now, who also lived through the history getting my first computer in 1981, participating in users groups, reading all the zines, going to regional and national trade shows for 8-bit home computers, etc, this was (and still is) a significant recurring theme. Owners of 8-bit and 16-bit computers in the 80s/early 90s (…
I agree that the issues w/ m68k-series processors were an underappreciated factor behind the demise of the Amiga and Atari ST computers. The Macintosh line managed to transition to PowerPC, but they did so via software emulation. That would've been highly problematic for the kind of software (games and early multimedia - not DTP, which was the Macintosh domain) where the Amiga and Atari ST were at their strongest. Other m68k machines in common use included, e.g. Sun and NeXT workstations which would've been running highly portable code without 'tight' performance requirements.
Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a good comment. I guess I don't attach the same weight to the CISC/RISC thing you do, but I agree that it's certainly true that the big "the real problem was x " pronouncements are insufficient to explain what really happened. (but are nevertheless quite interesting when they come from the parties involved!)
> I guess I don't attach the same weight to the CISC/RISC thing you do I certainly didn't appreciate the impact of CISC vs RISC architecture at the time. I understood the conceptual difference between them at a high level but didn't get why that caused Motorola to decide they couldn't keep scaling beyond the 68060. As a user and fan of 68030 and 040, I just didn't understand why they'd walk away from, arguably, the s…
You certainly see the impact of the "don't add too many instructions/flags" style of design even today in things like RISC-V that doesn't even use condition codes (an unexpected source of complexity in ISA spec, since every instruction must define exactly how it affects or does not affect each of several condition codes - RISC-V has none of that), expects you to use instruction fusion in larger implementations and defines "compressed" instructions as a mere shorthand for existing full-length instructions in order to simplify decode. ARM64 has made different choices on all of these things, it will be quite interesting to see how they compare in real-world scenarios at the higher end of performance.)
Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco
#78I had an 800XL and a 520ST, but I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about the 1200XL. I feel like I just entered some bizarro universe. But wow, I really love it's physical design.
There was an Apple II clone in Brazil that used the same design. It was called TK2000. I never found out why they copied the design of a completely different machine. I guess they just liked it.
Huge expense to make those.
Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
> ex-Atari people talking about what they could have done better As someone super into retro computing now, who also lived through the history getting my first computer in 1981, participating in users groups, reading all the zines, going to regional and national trade shows for 8-bit home computers, etc, this was (and still is) a significant recurring theme. Owners of 8-bit and 16-bit computers in the 80s/early 90s (…
> Also, the much-beloved 68000 series processors at the heart of the Amiga and Atari ST were ultimately doomed by the combination of being made by Motorola and being, perhaps, the ultimate expression of CISC architecture (which made them fun to program by hand in assembly language). I agree that the issues w/ m68k-series processors were an underappreciated factor behind the demise of the Amiga and Atari ST computers.…
This is an excellent point and one I hadn't fully appreciated until reading your comment. Most of the popular 68K software on Macs (such as DTP) was more amenable, or at least tolerant, of running under emulation. Even the popular games on Mac like Myst weren't as real-time critical as popular Amiga and Atari ST games which tended more toward arcade style and sometimes even accurate arcade ports. While I'm sure there were arcade style games for color 68K Macs, they weren't the majority. Also, because the Mac didn't have so many tightly integrated custom co-processors, my sense is that Mac 68K software wasn't as tightly hardware coupled and counting on specific timing interactions. A fair amount of Amiga software would read and write directly to hardware registers instead of using OS calls and even if it only used OS routines, it could still be highly dependent on precise behavior. Once again, we see that aspects which had made the Amiga and Atari ST great in the 80s, made it harder to navigate the transitions necessary to survive the 90s.
It would be interesting to have modern emulator authors compare notes about the software libraries between these platforms. While I'm sure Mac emulator authors still found a lot of 'misbehaving' Mac apps to deal with, my sense is the Amiga software library was bonkers to support in emulation. The WinUAE Amiga emulator has long had a precisely cycle-accurate mode which is less performant but simply necessary in many cases. And as mature as WinUAE is, the team is still discovering edge cases where 40 year-old games and graphics apps have never been emulated correctly.
Conversely, I remember around 1992 I bought a Macintosh emulator for my 68020 Amiga and it performed quite well. I used it for work to run Mac DTP applications. The emulator ran in software but used a small hardware dongle on the Amiga's parallel port to import original Mac ROMs which you needed to buy separately. Of course, both the emulation source and target were 68K-based but it indicates that most Mac software was reasonably well-behaved in terms of hardware dependence. If a little Amiga startup was able to write a pretty good Mac emulator, it was certainly possible for Apple themselves to it better as few years later with a much faster PowerPC CPU.
Finally, it's clear that post 1990 both Atari and Commodore were in increasingly weaker positions, not only financially but in terms of staff depth. While both still had some remarkably talented engineers, the bench wasn't deep. I know that at least at Commodore, toward the end they'd canceled their much improved, new Amiga chipset project (AAA). Even though it was almost complete with (mostly) working test silicon on prototype boards, they canceled it because it had become obvious future Pentium and RISC CPUs would outperform even the 68060 and AAA custom chips. At the time Commodore folded engineering was working on the 'Hombre', an entirely new design which would have been based on an HP RISC CPU. For graphics the main thrust would have been new retargetable graphics modes for hi-res, high-frequency monitors (1280 x 1024). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Hombre_chipset
The plan was to support legacy Amiga software with a 68K emulator on the RISC CPU driving a new chip created specifically to support legacy Amiga graphics modes. When I later read this, I remember being quite skeptical that hybrid software/hardware emulation would have worked very well for the eclectic Amiga library of legacy software. As much as I loved the Amiga, the OS stack could then only be described as 'crufty'. It had been upgraded a little over the years but still contained major legacy components from different eras and many of the people involved were no longer at Commodore. Given that reality, the plan had been to base the new Amiga on Windows NT.
But - even if Commodore somehow overcame the myriad technical challenges, lack of resources and depleted talent bench, once a next-gen Amiga isn't based on the 68K, AmigaOS or the custom chips and boots Windows NT in XGA mode - is it still really an Amiga? Certainly, at least some of my software wouldn't have worked anymore so, facing the decision to buy a new, quite different computer, why wouldn't users also look at the, probably, cheaper Packard Bell Pentium running Windows 95 down at Costco? After all, with the Pentium and Windows 95, the PC juggernaut had finally coalesced into a coherent whole that could be compelling to both home users and graphics, gaming, multimedia obsessed hobbyists. And new Doom/Quake quality games were coming out almost weekly. That's when even I bought a PC and started using it as my main daily driver. Of course, I kept my awesome, fully loaded, tweaked out, much beloved Amiga system on the desk alongside it for a couple years. But web pages never quite looked right on the Amiga and sharing files on the network was hardly seamless. Sadly, it was increasingly clear the world had moved on. In many ways the Amiga (and other notable platforms of the 80s) had blazed the trail showing the way to the future - but it was a future they would not be a part of.
Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco
#80The 1200XL was my first computer. My family purchased it at a department store at a fire sale price (IIRC Montgomery Ward's, $199) after Atari stopped manufacturing and began dumping its inventory to make way for the 600XL/800XL. I had been researching a computer to get for ages, but my family was very careful about how we spent money, and it was a big purchase. We had seriously considered getting a TI-99/4A when TI…
I patched my copy of the game and sent the patch to the publisher (Microprose, IIRC) but never heard from them.