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The Atari 1200XL fiasco

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Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ex-Atari people talking about what they could have done better As someone super into retro computing now, who also lived through the history getting my first computer in 1981, participating in users groups, reading all the zines, going to regional and national trade shows for 8-bit home computers, etc, this was (and still is) a significant recurring theme. Owners of 8-bit and 16-bit computers in the 80s/early 90s (…

This is a good comment. I guess I don't attach the same weight to the CISC/RISC thing you do, but I agree that it's certainly true that the big "the real problem was x " pronouncements are insufficient to explain what really happened. (but are nevertheless quite interesting when they come from the parties involved!)

Arguably there is one company that did manage to make the transition from 8 bit hobby home computing and gaming. Apple.

The Apple II was a contemporary, in fact a predecessor of all these systems. So, what did they do right, or what went right for them, that enabled them to make it? I suspect it was the penetration of the Apple II into education and business that helped make it possible, but suppose Steve Jobs had been in charge at Commodore or Atari?

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#52
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it is one of my favourite ecosystems, however I have always been a generalist, I can't get stuck into being a XYZ Developer for too long. As such I get what it means to be in a Microsoft shop, in a UNIX shop, in those that don't care, that use a mix of stacks whatver. The .NET team has made great achievements turning the ship around from Windows only into a cross platform product. However occasionally when th…

The smartest thing Microsoft could do, imho, is cancel all their billion UI variants, bless Avalonia and throw all the saved millions of dollars to them. Then in one instant they get a real cross-platform UI framework, with a competent team as a free bonus. It is actually incredibly compelling, the cross-platform .NET offering. If you look at all the Go, Python and Rust UI toolkits, none hits the bar. They invariably…

Linux distros are rewriting their installers and partition tools in web technologies these days. Hard to believe but the direction is clear, no one cares about local UI toolkits.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#53
post #43

I had an 800XL and a 520ST, but I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about the 1200XL. I feel like I just entered some bizarro universe. But wow, I really love it's physical design.

There was an Apple II clone in Brazil that used the same design. It was called TK2000.

I never found out why they copied the design of a completely different machine. I guess they just liked it.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ex-Atari people talking about what they could have done better As someone super into retro computing now, who also lived through the history getting my first computer in 1981, participating in users groups, reading all the zines, going to regional and national trade shows for 8-bit home computers, etc, this was (and still is) a significant recurring theme. Owners of 8-bit and 16-bit computers in the 80s/early 90s (…

This is a good comment. I guess I don't attach the same weight to the CISC/RISC thing you do, but I agree that it's certainly true that the big "the real problem was x " pronouncements are insufficient to explain what really happened. (but are nevertheless quite interesting when they come from the parties involved!)

> I guess I don't attach the same weight to the CISC/RISC thing you do

I certainly didn't appreciate the impact of CISC vs RISC architecture at the time. I understood the conceptual difference between them at a high level but didn't get why that caused Motorola to decide they couldn't keep scaling beyond the 68060. As a user and fan of 68030 and 040, I just didn't understand why they'd walk away from, arguably, the second most popular flagship computer ISA at the time. And they actually told computer manufacturers that the 68060 would be the end of the 68K line more than a year before 68060 even shipped. I was like, WTF? They weren't even done with the latest, greatest chip when they decided to kill the whole line, orphaning all that fantastic software from ever having any upgrade path to the future.

Only later did I gain a deeper appreciation for the impact. A few key things informed me:

* My high level understanding of CISC vs RISC wasn't complete back then. In the late 80s there was a lot of debate among CPU ISA designers on the relative merits between CISC and RISC - and that even extended to the definitions of the terms (which were fuzzy). A good example is this legendary Comp.Sci Usenet discusson: https://yarchive.net/comp/risc_definition.html. Only when I dove into those debates in the last 10 years did I really start to get the larger picture.

* The part that mattered most between RISC/CISC wasn't that RISC had less instructions than CISC (although it usually did), it was that those instructions were much less complex AND that the addressing modes were much less complex. This meant that, in general, RISC ISAs were easier to decode because instruction and operand length tended to be more fixed. This also had a bunch of other downstream effects generally causing RISC-ish ISAs to be easier to pipeline more deeply, easier to branch predict, easier to speculatively execute, etc. These are all things that enable putting extra gates to work speeding up execution.

* I was a huge fan of the 68K's insanely powerful addressing modes which let savvy assembly language programmers pack huge functionality into fewer instructions with addressing modes like indirection on both the input and output along with setting a bunch of flags and pre/post operations like decrement/increment. Programmers not only called 68K addressing modes powerful but also things like "orthogonal" and even "elegant." But all those varying instruction lengths with up to 14 different addressing modes plus even more optional flags modifying behavior before and/or after also created a complexity explosion for CPU architects trying to implement the most powerful new optimizations. That's one big reason why the 68060 was over a year late coming to market. It was only dual pipeline but even doing that was triggering unexpected avalanches of design complexity.

* Both Intel and Motorola realized the only way to continue increasing performance in the future while maintaining software compatibility with their old CISC ISA was to (basically) make future processors RISC CPUs running an extra hardware layer emulating a CISC ISA. It was both hard and costly in terms of gates and performance. Intel's lead in fab process helped them hide that performance cost and keep showing generational net speed increases as they navigated the transition. Motorola realized they'd probably have a generation or two of CPUs that weren't meaningfully faster until they bridged the gap and were on the other side.

There's a lot more but I'm certainly not a domain expert in CPU design and already summarizing my non-expert understanding of expert debates, so I'll leave it there. But it's pretty fascinating stuff. Both Intel and Moto realized that pure RISC implementations would probably beat them soon. Each company responded differently. Intel made the RISC-emulating-CISC approach to ISA compatibility (broadly speaking) work well enough to survive the transition. Motorola decided it was too risky (probably correctly given their fab technology and corporate resources), and instead chose to break with the past and partner with IBM in moving to Power PC. For Atari, Commodore, Apple et al this was a planetary level asteroid impact. If developers and customers lose all software compatibility with your new products, that makes the choice of moving to your next generation not much different than moving to another platform entirely. Only Apple managed to survive (and even they almost didn't). Arguably, they only treaded water with great design and marketing until saved by the iPod.

I should also mention there was another huge asteroid for vertically integrated non-Wintel computer platforms right behind the CISC/RISC asteroid. In the early to mid 90s Moore's Law scaling was allowing desktop computers to improve rapidly by growing dramatically more complex. It was getting to be more than one company could do to win on each separate front. On the Wintel side, the market solved this complexity by dividing the problem among different ecosystems of companies. One ecosystem would compete to make the CPU and chipset (Intel, NEC, Cyrix, AMD), another would make the OS (Windows/OS/2), another ecosystem would compete to make the best graphics and yet another would compete on sound (Creative, Yamaha, Ensoniq, etc). It would require a truly extraordinary company to compete effectively against all that with a custom vertically integrated computer. There was no way a Commodore or Atari could survive that onslaught. The game changed from company vs company to ecosystem vs ecosystem. And that next asteroid even wiped out stronger, better-capitalized companies that were on pure RISC architectures (Sun, SGI, Apollo, etc).

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Atari line was much better at scrolling, had a much much better master palette, supported display lists (nicer than setting up interrupts in the C64) and the POKEY had some advantages over the SID, not just the extra channel but also in doing beefy sound effects. I don't think any of this is denied by C64 fans. The C64 on the other hand could push nearly 6x the sprite data per line, had Color RAM for more interes…

Actually, it can do a fair impression as well: Crownland has transparent parallax https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN5fSp0XGzI You're right about the bonkers 3D! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwcN9FraNjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KatdrdEVEwY&t=532s I think the main thing was that Atari (pre83 company) abandoned the 8 bit line too early, and didn't make the 5200 cross-compatible.

This Crownland you have linked is a madness of an excellent developer's work, mostly quirks (I guess). According to my knowledge such a fast horizontal scrolling and colourful background is impossible in standard Atari with standard coding.

And it seems those are Polish guys (https://www.atari.org.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4520)

-- EDIT --

I found it: only version for Atari 130XE (i.e. 128KB RAM - this is not the standard, I guess it could run with cartdrige on 65 XL/XE maybe?), year 2006/2007 (fresh :) )

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#56

Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves and Atari Basketball are two additional games that made use of the 400/800's extra joystick ports. Ali Baba was turn-based, IIRC, so not as exciting of a use case, but playing basketball with three other kids simultaneously was a riot. Very special for the time.

Atari's port of Asteroids also supported four joysticks. You could play melee, co-op, or team mode, with four players on the screen at once. It was a blast.

https://www.atarimania.com/8bit/files/Asteroids_manual.pdf

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Atari line was much better at scrolling, had a much much better master palette, supported display lists (nicer than setting up interrupts in the C64) and the POKEY had some advantages over the SID, not just the extra channel but also in doing beefy sound effects. I don't think any of this is denied by C64 fans. The C64 on the other hand could push nearly 6x the sprite data per line, had Color RAM for more interes…

> For their time they were very comparable We can say that now, but it's worth remembering the Atari 8 bit computers came out over two years before the C64. Not such a big gap in computing today, but back then it was a lot. ex-Atari people talking about what they could have done better is always an interesting youtube phenomenon. (as with, for example, ex-Sun people, you hear a lot of theories but you never encounter…

>you never encounter anyone who says "yeah, I was the guy who made the whole thing fail"

Because that was usually a business decision and not a technical one.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#58
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good comment. I guess I don't attach the same weight to the CISC/RISC thing you do, but I agree that it's certainly true that the big "the real problem was x " pronouncements are insufficient to explain what really happened. (but are nevertheless quite interesting when they come from the parties involved!)

Arguably there is one company that did manage to make the transition from 8 bit hobby home computing and gaming. Apple. The Apple II was a contemporary, in fact a predecessor of all these systems. So, what did they do right, or what went right for them, that enabled them to make it? I suspect it was the penetration of the Apple II into education and business that helped make it possible, but suppose Steve Jobs had be…

Excellent question and one I already touched on in a sister reply before I saw your post. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43722230

Apple is indeed an extraordinary outlier (as is Jobs). If you look into the history of Apple's Gil Amelio days, very near-death and Steve's return, it was IMHO, a remarkable example of a series of fortunate miracles coinciding to allow Steve to brilliantly save the company when it had been only weeks away from death. Jobs calling Bill Gates and convincing him to quickly loan $400M to Apple averted disaster potentially by a matter of days. And Gates only did that because MSFT was being sued for anti-trust by the Justice Dept and needed Apple to survive as an example that Wintel still had some competition. Apple's survival in that period is the closest close thing I think the industry has ever seen.

To answer your last question, Jobs was undoubtedly incredibly brilliant but it took every ounce of that brilliance AND some crazy good luck for Apple to survive. Ultimately, it was Jobs plus flukes, so no, just Jobs without the flukes wouldn't have changed anything at Atari or Commodore. Even on its death bed Apple had a much better brand, distribution, market potential and talent than Atari or Commodore ever did. Plus Steve had his hand-picked entrepreneurial team from Next with him. The situations at Atari and Commodore were just much weaker in every way, so I don't think any single super hero, no matter how super, could have saved them.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#59
post #53
post #43

I had an 800XL and a 520ST, but I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about the 1200XL. I feel like I just entered some bizarro universe. But wow, I really love it's physical design.

There was an Apple II clone in Brazil that used the same design. It was called TK2000. I never found out why they copied the design of a completely different machine. I guess they just liked it.

Very neat! Apparently didn't have the top row of function buttons.

For those reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TK_2000

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#60
I jumped from an 8-bit Atari to a CGA PC/XT clone and it was surprising how much forward I jumped in power and capability and storage, yet how much -backwards- I jumped in graphics and sound. Those were great lil' machines and even got me online (to BBS's at 300baud) back in the day.
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