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Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

nature.com

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Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#271

Post by delecti »

loeg wrote: post #268
delecti wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The male-pattern skeletal growth isn't necessarily a disadvantage. E.g., narrower hips and stronger bones is likely an advantage in running. It might or might not help, but if it were a net benefit then you'd expect trans women runners to perform more strongly than they actually do. > My understanding is the opposite. In fact, if it wasn't the case, there is basically no reason to have separate mens and womens fiel…

My last sentence wasn't particularly coherent; sorry. I have sort of two ideas here that were merged poorly: (1) setting aside trans entirely, cismen enjoy significant sport advantages over ciswomen in most sports, and this (fairness) is basically why we have women's sports instead of combined fields. (2) I believe transwomen have outsized performance in women's sports (contra your claim of no outperformance). > Ther…

> I think you can basically make a case for including or excluding transwomen in women's sports depending on whether you think inclusion or fairness is most important.

A pretty wide spread of sports have allowed trans women*, and they have not dominated. If trans women did have an outsized performance in women's sports, there'd be examples to point to. I don't think you can make an evidence-based case for fairness and inclusion being at odds, given there aren't any unfair examples of inclusion to point to.

Some of the most notable examples include weightlifting and swimming. In weightlifting, probably the sport I'd expect an unfair advantage to make itself most apparent, Laurel Hubbard got a DNF in the Olympics, and did merely pretty good in several other events. Or in swimming, another sport I'd expect body proportions to have a significant impact in, Lia Thomas, who was the center of a ton of controversy, also did merely fine.

I'm not sure there are sports where trans women would have a bigger advantage than weightlifting, if such an advantage existed. And the tiny number of trans women interested in sports means that erring on the side of inclusion (if it does turn out to be an error) would also have a tiny negative impact,

* - Pedantic side note, combining "transwomen" and "ciswomen" into single words implies that we're different base nouns. It's similar to how "chinamen" is not acceptable, but generally there's nothing wrong with "Chinese men". "Trans" and "cis" are just adjectives modifying "men" or "women".

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#272

Post by gamblor956 »

johnisgood wrote: post #261
throwaway98797 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

drink milkshakes

I drink a protein shake 2 times at least, and eat lunch (chicken & rice & broccoli casserole, so forth) 2-3 times a day. I do not eat small portions either.

That only looks like about 2000 calories a day, which is the recommended caloric intake for the average sedentary adult man.

If you're trying to bulk, you need to be looking at 2500 or more calories a day, plus additional for any calories burned by exercise. (With a surplus of 1000/calories a day you'll be gaining more fat than muscle unless you're still in puberty. Sometimes that may be what you want.)

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#273

Post by olalonde »

bluecheese452 wrote: post #228
olalonde wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what the "The Renaissance Diet 2.0" book recommends: 1) Don't lose more than 10% of your bodyweight in the same weight loss period. 2) Don't lose more than 1% of body weight per week. 3) At the end of a weight loss period, transition to eating at maintenance calories for a while before starting a new weight loss period. A common mistake is to completely stop dieting when you reach your goal weight. This is a b…

That book was written by a bodybuilder who has consistently showed up on stage way too fat. Then he claims it is all water weight.

So 8% body fat? :) Regardless, he his first and foremost a PhD in sports physiology.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#274

Post by sleepyguy »

meindnoch wrote: post #237
sleepyguy wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems fasting causes Adipocyte apoptosis. It makes sense, there is cell death. I lost 100 lbs fasting over 1.5 years. I did gain some weight back after stopping, but not much. Strangely, where I saw fat return was not where most of it came off.

Yeah, but fasting is extremely unpleasant.

You get to know yourself well after about 5 days of zero food..... :))

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#275

Post by [deleted] »

delecti wrote: post #271
loeg wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last sentence wasn't particularly coherent; sorry. I have sort of two ideas here that were merged poorly: (1) setting aside trans entirely, cismen enjoy significant sport advantages over ciswomen in most sports, and this (fairness) is basically why we have women's sports instead of combined fields. (2) I believe transwomen have outsized performance in women's sports (contra your claim of no outperformance). > Ther…

> I think you can basically make a case for including or excluding transwomen in women's sports depending on whether you think inclusion or fairness is most important. A pretty wide spread of sports have allowed trans women*, and they have not dominated. If trans women did have an outsized performance in women's sports, there'd be examples to point to. I don't think you can make an evidence-based case for fairness an…

[deleted]

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#276

Post by vimus »

delecti wrote: post #271
loeg wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last sentence wasn't particularly coherent; sorry. I have sort of two ideas here that were merged poorly: (1) setting aside trans entirely, cismen enjoy significant sport advantages over ciswomen in most sports, and this (fairness) is basically why we have women's sports instead of combined fields. (2) I believe transwomen have outsized performance in women's sports (contra your claim of no outperformance). > Ther…

> I think you can basically make a case for including or excluding transwomen in women's sports depending on whether you think inclusion or fairness is most important. A pretty wide spread of sports have allowed trans women*, and they have not dominated. If trans women did have an outsized performance in women's sports, there'd be examples to point to. I don't think you can make an evidence-based case for fairness an…

> In weightlifting, probably the sport I'd expect an unfair advantage to make itself most apparent, Laurel Hubbard got a DNF in the Olympics, and did merely pretty good in several other events.

On the contrary, Laurel Hubbard is a good example of how apparent this male physical advantage is when male athletes are allowed to compete in the female category.

Here's a chart showing ranked lifts for both men's and women's weightlifting in the World Masters Games, where Hubbard won a gold medal in the women's category in 2017: https:/i.ibb.co/WWf7CMQD/hubbard.jpg (the source of this graph is a developmental biologist who, amongst other things, studies sex differences in sport).

This shows that the set of lifts by female and male weightlifters are entirely distinct. Hubbard falls within the middle range of the male rankings and is a huge outlier compared to the female rankings.

For the Olympics, if Hubbard had been female, qualification for the competition would have been unprecedented. Hubbard was competing in the wake of an earlier elbow injury, had taken a years-long career break, and was considerably older than any female weightlifter ever to qualify for Olympic weightlifting: female weightlifters peak at around age 26 and Hubbard was 43 years old at the time.

Being male in the female category was sufficient to mitigate all the effects of older age, chronic injury, undertraining, and - compared to other males - lack of world class talent.

It's also worth noting that Hubbard came last at the Olympics due to being disqualified for improper technique, not because of being unable to physically manage the lifts.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#277

Post by testing22321 »

zemvpferreira wrote: post #203
testing22321 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you come off it before that 5 years are up, yeah, you are probably expected to bounce back somewhat. It would only be possible to bounce back if you eat excess calories once off the GLP-1.

Obviously, but the 'obesogenic memory' that this article is about is a real problem. Calories don't manifest out of thin air but for a plethora of reasons they're much much easier to overconsume as a formerly fat person.

Over consuming calories is always easy for everyone. Sugar and fat instead of vegetables.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#278

Post by confidantlake »

HorizonXP wrote: post #258
spoiler wrote: post #2

As someone who's struggled with weight loss, and have known others to struggle with it well, I think we colloquially called this "slow metabolism". It always did feel like it was easier to gain weight than lose it, especially fat weight and not muscle weight for me. I was recently sent a video about fat adaptation (basically teaching your body to be better at burning fat) by a very fit friend, but I wonder how much o…

I have had a slow metabolism since I was a teenager. I don't think I've ever experienced a day in my life where I haven't thought about my weight, body composition, or felt guilty about eating food. And I'm not even that big. I've just never had the physique I wanted, and I always attributed it to having a slow metabolism. I'm turning 40 in May, so since the start of February, I've finally pulled up my bootstraps and…

You aren't cursed with a slow metabolism, you have just been having too many calories. If you are truly never hungry but still not losing weight, then why not reduce your calories by 200-300 a day?

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#279

Post by confidantlake »

agos wrote: post #20
paulpauper wrote: post #9

The more you research/learn about obesity, the worse it is, much like smoking. One of the most depressing stats is that dieting does not get easier with time. The probability of eventually regaining all the weight eventually converges to 100%. Even if you're successful for 2 years, people still regain by year 4, 5, etc. The body never resists trying to regain the weight. GLP-1 drugs are the best hope yet.

absolutely. and yet people will still say "just eat less"! Imagine telling a person who smokes "just smoke less"

Ultimately this is true though right? If you want to quit smoking at some point you need to smoke less.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#280

Post by [deleted] »

Aurornis wrote: post #162
meindnoch wrote: post #82

Well, yeah. Adipocytes multiply when you get fat. But when you lose weight, they don't apoptose, they just shrink in volume by giving up their lipid stores.

Similar adaptions occur in muscle. The extent of new muscle fiber development (hyperplasia) is debated, so there are multiples factors influencing how muscle retains some memory of past strength ability. Once you’ve reached a level of physical strength it’s easier to return to that level in the future. This has been a topic of debate in the sports world because past anabolic steroid use could therefore carry benefits…

[deleted]
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