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Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

nature.com

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Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#91
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet it happens. A doctor in my family told the story of a patient they were treating in hospital who medically needed to lose weight, and who they found unable to get any reduction until they dropped below _200_ calories a day. Metabolism is _significantly_ more complex than CI/CO, from experience.

Come on, this is ridiculous. CI/CO is a thing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamics

Agreeing and I found it interesting to learn more about caloric availability to the body.

I.e. calories on the label vs what the body can actually access.

Like drinking smoothies (high availability) vs raw fruit (lower availability)

Dr. Greger (Nutrition focused) discusses some of this on calorie density and some referenced studies here if interested:

https://nutritionfacts.org/blog/how-to-lose-weight-eating-mo...

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#92
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is more likely: - a physics-breaking thermodynamic anomaly - a food addicted person is lying about their consumption 200 kcal a day.. yeah sure. A human body needs more than that just to breathe and pump blood. Even comatose a skinny person needs 5 times as much. Overweight people have a significantly higher metabolic base rate. Just breathing can easily be 1000kcal a day if your lungs have to move 30 kilos of u…

It's insane how arrogant people can be about this. You have not accounted for all of the variables and that is blatantly obvious. The phenomenon is well known and there are multi-variable equations for it, many different models. One popular model is that NEET can decrease below the caloric deficit, meaning you still gain weight by becoming subconsciously lazier despite everything feeling equally difficult subjectivel…

200kcal/day is less than 10W. Since all energy the body uses is released as heat this puts the maximum sustainable heat radiation with such a diet at 10W.

That's about the level of a typical household LED, which at most feels slightly warm to the touch.

At that energy level you could not sustain weight while maintaining body temperature let alone having a healthy metabolism. That's just a plain fact.

You will lose weight long before you reach 200kcal/day.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#93
post #2

As someone who's struggled with weight loss, and have known others to struggle with it well, I think we colloquially called this "slow metabolism". It always did feel like it was easier to gain weight than lose it, especially fat weight and not muscle weight for me. I was recently sent a video about fat adaptation (basically teaching your body to be better at burning fat) by a very fit friend, but I wonder how much o…

The physical mechanism is mitochondrial uncoupling proteins (UCP). They regulate how much energy is wasted as heat when converting ADP to ATP, determining how efficient one’s metabolism is. When you lose weight, your UCP proteins start wasting less and less energy when producing ATP, which is one of the things that makes dieting so hard.

Actually affecting that pathway is largely beyond us at the moment (that’s the bro science) but the mechanism is relatively well understood.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#94
post #88
post #2

As someone who's struggled with weight loss, and have known others to struggle with it well, I think we colloquially called this "slow metabolism". It always did feel like it was easier to gain weight than lose it, especially fat weight and not muscle weight for me. I was recently sent a video about fat adaptation (basically teaching your body to be better at burning fat) by a very fit friend, but I wonder how much o…

If there really was a gene that allowed you to survive on substantially less food than your peers, pretty much all humans would have said gene. The history of humanity is rife with famine, and that gene would be a game-changer for survival

It's all about tradeoffs. In this case, I wonder if there's an "efficient metabolism" gene that makes your body put a higher percentage of incoming nutrients into long-term storage (mostly in fat tissue). Carriers of this gene would be more likely to survive a famine, but less likely to outrun a predator or defend against an attack by another leaner human, who's genes allocate incoming nutrients to be utilized more effectively in the short-term.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#95

As this article shows, there are incredibly complex feedback mechanisms around weight and metabolism, but thermodynamics are still fundamentally a thing. After he died last year, I ran across this engineering and accounting approach to weight maintenance and loss written up by John Walker (one of the Autodesk founders). It worked very well for him and changed the way I thought about weight and eating. It is interesti…

Thank you for sharing, I'd never seen this before. It's an incredibly good read (and relevant for me) so far.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#96
post #88
post #2

As someone who's struggled with weight loss, and have known others to struggle with it well, I think we colloquially called this "slow metabolism". It always did feel like it was easier to gain weight than lose it, especially fat weight and not muscle weight for me. I was recently sent a video about fat adaptation (basically teaching your body to be better at burning fat) by a very fit friend, but I wonder how much o…

If there really was a gene that allowed you to survive on substantially less food than your peers, pretty much all humans would have said gene. The history of humanity is rife with famine, and that gene would be a game-changer for survival

...don't we? According to [0], the amount of food (by energy intake) people get is very diverse worldwide. People can survive famine situations for a long time, and people' problems with obesity is linked to exactly those survival genes.

Granted, some animals are much better at it, crocodiles and bears and stuff can go without food for months.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_ener...

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#97
post #88
post #2

As someone who's struggled with weight loss, and have known others to struggle with it well, I think we colloquially called this "slow metabolism". It always did feel like it was easier to gain weight than lose it, especially fat weight and not muscle weight for me. I was recently sent a video about fat adaptation (basically teaching your body to be better at burning fat) by a very fit friend, but I wonder how much o…

If there really was a gene that allowed you to survive on substantially less food than your peers, pretty much all humans would have said gene. The history of humanity is rife with famine, and that gene would be a game-changer for survival

I think it’s quite the opposite because it would not be a gene that allows you to survive on less food - it would be a gene that favors replacing glycogen stores over lipid stores. That kind of mechanism would be pretty negative to survival until the modern era of sedentary civilization.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#98

Just went trough Yo-Yo. Any good strategies on how to overcome it for good?

Weigh yourself every day. Journal it. This sets up an objective metric to calibrate against. Set medium term goals. Don't try to lose 20 kilos in six months. Lose the next kilo by this time in two weeks. Similarly, don't try to lose 0.1 kilos by tomorrow. Weight naturally fluctuates day to day based on water intake, sodium intake, muscle fatigue, and other things. But in the range of 2-3 weeks, you should be able to…

I agree with your point in general, but I think the paragraph below is the most important:

> The rest is just finding eating patterns that work for you that help keep calorie levels low enough. There's a lot of advice about ways to do that, and most need to be taken with a grain of salt, but it's probably true that you can min/max at the margins by increasing fiber intake, increasing protein intake, drinking more water, eating more raw plants, intermittent fasting, and that sort of thing. But you'll mostly see fractional improvements on top of the bottom line math: calories burned need to exceed calories consumed.

It's "easy" to lose a ton of weight if you don't eat anything at all. But that's obviously not sustainable. However, what I've found works, is that those things "at the margins" as you say actually have a huge effect on adherence to the "diet". Some foods require a tremendous amount of willpower to only consume in "reasonable" quantities. Think candy bars, chips, the like.

The point is to take note about how you feel after a given meal. Some foods, even though the meal would bring enough calories, leave you with a feeling of wanting more. Avoid these. Others leave you feeling full for hours. Go for those. What I've noticed is that sometimes, the effect may come from "secondary" ingredients, like the dressing on a salad, whereas the salad itself will leave you feeling full for the whole afternoon.

There are things you may enjoy quite a lot, so if they're of the "can't stop eating them sort", you'll have to forego them entirely. It's actually much easier to not eat them at all (and, ideally, not even have them in the house) than hoping you'll be reasonable. With time, these foods will lose their appeal, and you won't randomly crave them every day. Getting over this first step is what I find hardest.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#99

Calorie counting is the only truly reliable way to lose weight

That's clearly not true. Calorie counting can work if you stick to it and aren't shit at estimating the calories in food. Almost any diet can work if you are able to stick with it. Appetite suppressants like amphetamines seen to work too. We've also seen that the new diabetes drugs actually work.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#100

Just went trough Yo-Yo. Any good strategies on how to overcome it for good?

Don't try to lose weight fast. Don't do a diet for a limited amount of time. Change your eating habits to something you can live with permanently. Avoid sugar in drinks, it's so easy to get a lot of calories without feeling full. Sugar in general will give you hunger attacks. For me personally I feel best if I have a big part of calories coming from protein, followed by less carbs and some fat. But removing sugar fro…

> Going to the gym helped me immensely. Not so much in losing weight directly but in feeling better and fresher.

This. I've found working out has changed the kinds of foods I crave, making it easier to adhere to a diet. I'd usually feel more like a steak with eggs and brocoli rather than a deep-fried burger.

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