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How the U.S. became a science superpower

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Re: How the U.S. became a science superpower

#481

Post by comte7092 »

thatcat wrote: post #439
comte7092 wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of money we are talking about for research is so small in comparison to the debt that it’s a red herring to even bring up the current debt level. As you’ve noted, even the largest parts of the budget are dwarfed by the total deficit. Researching is a rounding error. There’s this thing called taxes. We’ve had thirty years of tax hawks intentionally creating this situation that we find ourselves in, because…

Universities could pay for all of the research themselves theoretically considering they're the largest business in most states. Their portfolio income, the sports income, the donations, and the free real estate given to land grant universities that has been heavily monetized all add up. Of course I doubt they will allocate money to research, but they could if that was truely their purpose as an organization.

There’s could and then there’s should. Could they? I don’t know, I’d have to look at their finances individually, it’s not like all of them have Harvard level endowments or alabamas football income.

Should they? We literally built a juggernaut with our incumbent model that is the envy of the entire world and has produced untold innovation and wealth creation, for pennies of our tax dollars. The only reason I can see being advanced to undo that is pure dogma and blind faith in ideology.

Re: How the U.S. became a science superpower

#482

Post by adrr »

_t9ow wrote: post #322
adrr wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax revenue as percentage of GDP right now 17%. You can pick random countries and compare. China 26%, Sweden 41%, Japan 32% etc. Do you see the issue? When we ran a surplus during Clinton's admin, we were at 20%.

> 17% ... When we ran a surplus during Clinton's admin, we were at 20%. Where did you get these figures from? According to OECD, the US' tax revenue-to-GDP ratio was 27.6% in 2022 and 25.2% in 2023: https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-sub-i... It was 28.3% in 2000, when Clinton was still President.

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/gover...

https://www.bea.gov/data/gdp/gross-domestic-product

$5 Trillion Tax Revenue

$28.177 trillion GDP

Re: How the U.S. became a science superpower

#483

Post by elcritch »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #442
elcritch wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine I’ll oblige. :P I believe hastening it (momentarily) has been good. Well the looming debt issue as I understand this subthread to be about. Like a patient getting indigestion and goes to the ER thinking it's a heat attack, only to find it’s not but his cholesterol and BP is through the roof and he needs blood pressure meds asap. Trumps tactics has caused much more attention on the matter. Tariffs can be reduced,…

People have been predicting catastrophe since the 70s. Same with social security. Somehow we keep muddling along.

That attitude sounds like a college grad with a fresh credit card they keep spending on.

Their parents warn them that if they keep spending on it there will be major issues. But hey, they still have like $10k of credit and they can get another card! They’re just old and predicting catastrophe all the time.

Until one day they they have no more credit left and all their income goes to paying credit card interest not even paying off the debt.

In the 70s the debt was negligible. Now the debt is nearing 100% of the US GDP [1]. Historically once countries reach 120% hyperinflation occurs. The dollar being the global reserve currency buffers it a bit but not indefinitely.

1: https://econofact.org/why-is-the-u-s-debt-expected-to-keep-g...

Re: How the U.S. became a science superpower

#484

Post by SecretDreams »

robertlagrant wrote: post #479
SecretDreams wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax wealth somehow, not just income. It's clear the accumulation has become a generational problem. Your great grandkids could cure cancer and bezo's could do nothing and yours would never have a fraction of the wealth his have.

> Your great grandkids could cure cancer and bezo's could do nothing and yours would never have a fraction of the wealth his have. This isn't a problem.

The fact that people hold this opinion is part of the problem. Nobody can see beyond how a problem effects them, especially when it comes to wealth.

Re: How the U.S. became a science superpower

#485

Post by aceazzameen »

anonfordays wrote: post #441
feoren wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have computers in our pockets that can perform trillions of calculations per second; we have social media sites capturing terabytes or petabytes of data per second; we have LLMs with trillions of parameters. So it boggles my mind to see someone say "we can't tax wealth, that'd be too complicated ! We'd have to do dozens of calculations per year!" You're imagining taxes as being one big annual chunk, but it doesn't…

>We have computers in our pockets that can perform trillions of calculations per second; we have social media sites capturing terabytes or petabytes of data per second; we have LLMs with trillions of parameters. So it boggles my mind to see someone say "we can't tax wealth, that'd be too complicated! We'd have to do dozens of calculations per year!" No one is saying that it's "too complicated" to calculate someone's…

Why don't you help brainstorm ideas instead of being dismissive? There is no right answer right now. Clearly in order for society to move forward in a healthy way, single individuals cannot amass wealth/power that is a millennia ahead of everyone else. The goal isn't to say you can't be wealthy. The goal is wealth/power cannot be obscenely beyond everyone else. These few individuals have more power than governments. This is a complex issue that requires a complex solution. There is no easy answer.

What's the threshold for obscene? That's an easy one, but still requires discussion.

Should a % of assets be frozen and redistributed after that threshold is reached?

Should we Logan's Run the top 10 richest and let the market adjust around that?

There's going to be some preposterous ideas! The answer won't be as simple as raise taxes. Regardless, these discussions need to take place so a good solution for the world can coalesce.

Re: How the U.S. became a science superpower

#486

Post by zelphirkalt »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #444
zelphirkalt wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you can easily observe it. Look at Germany. Not investing sufficiently into education, public Infrastructure, hospitals, and probably more. Inefficient bureaucracy everywhere. Long term effects already visible and only becoming more pronounced. People have a 4y political memory and electing the same shit again. This apparently will continue until we hit rock bottom. I just hope others will be ready to face an…

> Not investing sufficiently into education, public Infrastructure, hospitals, and probably more. Inefficient bureaucracy everywhere. Youre blaming this on markets? Germanys problem is an overly rigid beuarcratic state that refuses to run a deficit, not overly free markets.

It is also part of the free market ideologists' ideas, that a hospital must be profitable, a school must be profitable, and similar absurd ideas. It is also part of their ideology, that school children go without lunch as a consequence.

Re: How the U.S. became a science superpower

#487

Post by [deleted] »

FredPret wrote: post #475
Retric wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That overstates the difference as mergers hardly destroy the old companies in their entirety. Instead it’s the same kind of shakeups you regularly see in government agencies. Picking one small example, HERSA is a merger of the Health Services Administration (1973–1982) and Health Resources Administration (1973–1982). However currently one of its major functions is managing the Ryan White HIV/AIDS Program that showed…

A merger frequently involves major shakeups in both the acquirer and the acquired. You don’t have to, and shouldn’t destroy the old companies. You just want their resources redirected to more efficient uses every so often.

[deleted]

Re: How the U.S. became a science superpower

#488

Post by ryoshoe »

koakuma-chan wrote: post #454
Epa095 wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that we know what this administration means by 'merrit based', it means to fire anyone who dissagres, particularly women and non-whites, while hirering grosely incompetent TV-people. The only 'merrit' is loyalty.

"the University must adopt and implement merit-based hiring policies, and cease all preferences based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin throughout its hiring, promotion, compensation, and related practices among faculty, staff, and leadership"

"Every department or field found to lack viewpoint diversity must be reformed by hiring a critical mass of new faculty within that department or field who will provide viewpoint diversity; every teaching unit found to lack viewpoint diversity must be reformed by admitting a critical mass of students who will provide viewpoint diversity"

"viewpoint diversity" isn't a guarantee of merit-based hiring policies

Re: How the U.S. became a science superpower

#489

Post by grafmax »

BobbyJo wrote: post #194
grafmax wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the free market will self-correct and optimize outcomes is a well-documented fantasy. Markets don’t account for externalities, they concentrate wealth (and therefore political power), and they routinely underprovide merit goods like education, healthcare, and basic research (things that benefit society broadly but aren’t immediately profitable). As for how to address budget issues, the solution is simpl…

Im afraid you'd need to be pretty liberal with your definition of rich at this point to dig us out of this hole through taxes alone.

The top 11–12 richest individuals in the U.S. hold assets equivalent to the national budget deficit. Let’s not fool ourselves. The money is there.

Re: How the U.S. became a science superpower

#490

Post by WalterBright »

Arainach wrote: post #473
WalterBright wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States, postwar Japan, postwar Germany, Hong Kong, Taiwan, S Korea, China, and so on. How do you explain the scores of millions of people that came to the US, and still come, if the US free market is a hellhole of monopoly, abuse, corruption, and oppression?

The united states during its periods of greatest growth as well as the other environments you called out had strong regulatory environments to keep "the market" in check

I suspect you may be thinking that a free market is anarchy (no government). It isn't.
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