Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview • Hacker News Board

Re: Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview

#91

Post by chimineycricket » Wed, Apr 16, 2025, 2:24 AM UTC

tasn wrote: post #90

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. Maybe the blood of one's ancestors doesn't make it okay for someone thousands of miles away who never lived in a place be eligible t…

I'm not sure I fully follow what you were saying, but here's an attempt at responding: > Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. 1. Jews are a majority in Israel. 2. Non-Je…

>2. Non-Jews have equal rights >I think what you're asking is: why is it OK to have the "right of return"...[because] Jews have been persecuted throughout history wherever they lived

This is a contradiction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression_Olympics

>Not one war started by Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

If you want to claim it wasn't the country of Israel, congratulations I guess.

Re: Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview

#92

Post by aprilthird2021 » Wed, Apr 16, 2025, 4:05 AM UTC

tasn wrote: post #90

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. Maybe the blood of one's ancestors doesn't make it okay for someone thousands of miles away who never lived in a place be eligible t…

I'm not sure I fully follow what you were saying, but here's an attempt at responding: > Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. 1. Jews are a majority in Israel. 2. Non-Je…

1. Jews are not a majority in Israel and Palestine combined and Israel has de facto control over all of Palestine and they would describe it as area under their control rather than as a separate state.

2. Non-Jews can never ever ever be allowed to be a majority of the voting populace in Israel, so that's why the ones in Palestine (under Israeli control, on the rez, so to speak) are not given any rights in the country that controls them. The Israeli Arabs would be stripped of their political rights if they ever outnumbered Israeli Jews and you know this very well.

3. I'm not interested in any conspiracy frankly.

> Let's start with the right of return: sovereign countries can make their own laws, which includes immigration laws.

Sure. But I think these ones are disturbing because they make one minority ethnicity, often from abroad, the kings over all the others who live on the same land with the power to remove them from their homes whenever convenient (as happens in the West Bank daily).

> Jews have therefore fled from all over the world to the only country in the world where they are protected, which is Israel

Jews are less safe in Israel than in Europe and America. (E.g. https://forward.com/opinion/536469/antisemitism-may-be-most-...)

But also, I don't think any country "deserves" to exist to right any wrong in the world. Countries force themselves into existence. Israel did the same, often resorting to the exact same terror tactics (yes even the Haganah conducted military operations using civilian buildings as cover) they now bemoan the Palestinians for resorting to to establish their own state. Whether or not it is the only country for Jews is irrelevant to me. Many ethnicities will never have their "own" nation, and some have multiple, but that has little to do with whether I find the exalting of one ethnicity over the others to such a degree that the others must be made stateless and right-less to be good or bad.

> Should they be allowed to emigrate to Israel? I don't think in the history of the world any country has allowed the descendants of a losing army to emigrate to their country.

It's not emigrating to their country it's movement within the same country. Again, the entire problem I have is that Israel needs to strip the people who live in the land it controls of political rights to maintain its ethnic minority led democracy. This is like saying the Native Americans cannot leave the reservations and live among Americans because their ancestors lost the wars against the Colonists.

> There was no such thing as Palestine in the way that you think about it

This is always the least convincing argument because it doesn't matter and it has nothing to do with how Israel must make the people who aren't Jews stateless and rights-less for its ethnic minority democracy to function. You can call them Plutons for all it matters, I care what Israel is doing that's wrong. I don't believe that a national identity that is "new" means anything about whether human beings should be denied rights solely because of their ethnicity.

Thanks for sharing. I am always open to hear other perspectives. Hope you're similarly open to mine

Re: Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview

#93

Post by runarberg » Wed, Apr 16, 2025, 4:16 AM UTC

chimineycricket wrote: post #91

tasn wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I fully follow what you were saying, but here's an attempt at responding: > Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. 1. Jews are a majority in Israel. 2. Non-Je…

>2. Non-Jews have equal rights >I think what you're asking is: why is it OK to have the "right of return"...[because] Jews have been persecuted throughout history wherever they lived This is a contradiction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression_Olympics >Not one war started by Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing If you want to claim it wasn't the country of Israel, congratulations I gue…

The myth that Israel does not do apartheid in Israel proper has to be answered.

First of all, one cannot excuse apartheid by drawing arbitrary borders and declare some of them as apartheid-free zones, while doing apartheid in others. That is not how apartheid works. But even if it did, Israel proper still has dozens of discriminatory laws[1] with a few more in the works. And even with out those, there are in practice dozens of exclusionary policies which displaces and denies Palestinians (as well as Bedouin) access to land and homes, including but nut limited to those displaced by the Nakba. Your parent actually spends a lot of words (way to many words in fact) only to say they agree with this policy of denying Palestinians the right to the land which was stolen from them. There is no way to describe this denial of access to their own land but with Apartheid.

1: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

Re: Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview

#94

Post by runarberg » Wed, Apr 16, 2025, 4:23 AM UTC

tasn wrote: post #90

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. Maybe the blood of one's ancestors doesn't make it okay for someone thousands of miles away who never lived in a place be eligible t…

I'm not sure I fully follow what you were saying, but here's an attempt at responding: > Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. 1. Jews are a majority in Israel. 2. Non-Je…

For the record, Greenland did not have a flag until 1985, but that has no bearing on the existence of the Greenlandic national identity. And it certainly does not give Denmark (with a flag created in the 13th century) any right displace say all of West Greenland and then refuse them the right of return.

Re: Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview

#95

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 16, 2025, 4:48 AM UTC

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #92

tasn wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I fully follow what you were saying, but here's an attempt at responding: > Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. 1. Jews are a majority in Israel. 2. Non-Je…

1. Jews are not a majority in Israel and Palestine combined and Israel has de facto control over all of Palestine and they would describe it as area under their control rather than as a separate state. 2. Non-Jews can never ever ever be allowed to be a majority of the voting populace in Israel, so that's why the ones in Palestine (under Israeli control, on the rez, so to speak) are not given any rights in the country…

[deleted]

Re: Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview

#96

Post by asacrowflies » Wed, Apr 16, 2025, 5:56 AM UTC

tasn wrote: post #89

ddq wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My name is Tom Hacohen. I was born and raised in Tel-Aviv (Israel), lived in London for the last decade, and I'm now back in Israel." I suggest you learn more about the conflict from different perspectives if you think the claim of genocide is "weak". Criticism of your country's extensive human rights abuses is not antisemitism. You are representing your country very poorly with this post.

> I suggest you learn more about the conflict from different perspectives if you think the claim of genocide is "weak". I do my best to learn about it from different perspectives. As for the genocide claim: I think it has been argued a lot online so no need to rehash it here. > Criticism of your country's extensive human rights abuses is not antisemitism. I disagree with the statement, though that's not the statement…

Many USA states make it illegal to boycott Israel including my own. You can no longer protest them in university which is a time honored american tradition predating the Vietnam war.They very much DO have an overt oversized control of western politics ,police,and institutions.. If anyone should be getting these crazy deportations, should be these Israelis who consistently spout unamerican rhetoric and undermine the fundamental principals of our nation. While claiming ethnic and religious superiority.

Re: Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview

#97

Post by asacrowflies » Wed, Apr 16, 2025, 5:59 AM UTC

tasn wrote: post #90

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. Maybe the blood of one's ancestors doesn't make it okay for someone thousands of miles away who never lived in a place be eligible t…

I'm not sure I fully follow what you were saying, but here's an attempt at responding: > Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. 1. Jews are a majority in Israel. 2. Non-Je…

So what are your thoughts on setting up a similar nation in North America? By force. A native American nakba if you will.... I assume you'd be fine with it or at least stay out the way right??? /S

Re: Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview

#98

Post by ffsm8 » Wed, Apr 16, 2025, 9:04 AM UTC

TYPE_FASTER wrote: post #72

ffsm8 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I was in college in the 90s. People were protesting and taking over admin buildings. Speaking was not a crime. There has been no evidence that Mahdawi has done anything other than speak or contribute to organizing a protest. Neither of these activities are criminal activities.

Speaking isn't, but vandalism is. And a lot of the things they've done can only be called that. While vandalism is technically still against the law, in this particular case it's rarely enforced for politicial reasons.

If you'd read my comment you should've been able to understand that I'm talking about a subset of the protestors - not the person this case is about. Like it or not, if you're part of a group which doesn't actively expell such participants, you end up destroying your own image. And people related to that group usually get judged by the actions of the worst of it's members.

Hence why it'd be impossible to convince anyone with an example like this article.

To be abundantly clear: I never meant to imply that this isn't a problematic case (nor did I write that). I'm merely pointing out that nobody will be convinced of the grandparents call to action with this example

Re: Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview

#99

Post by tasn » Wed, Apr 16, 2025, 11:29 AM UTC

chimineycricket wrote: post #91

tasn wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I fully follow what you were saying, but here's an attempt at responding: > Why does believing that Israel's system of only allowing a minority ethnicity in the land it controls to have political power and rights but claiming to be a democracy is wrong, and why do you assume people who believe this also believe in whatever weird conspiracy you're talking about. 1. Jews are a majority in Israel. 2. Non-Je…

>2. Non-Jews have equal rights >I think what you're asking is: why is it OK to have the "right of return"...[because] Jews have been persecuted throughout history wherever they lived This is a contradiction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression_Olympics >Not one war started by Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing If you want to claim it wasn't the country of Israel, congratulations I gue…

Contradiction: this law does not discriminate against citizens, it discriminates among people who want to become citizens using that specific law. In the US you can get an investor visa, does that discriminate against poor people? Or if you're Indian the wait times for green cards are very long, does that discriminate against Indians? No...

King David bombing: yeah, that wasn't the state of Israel who did it. It also wasn't Israel starting a war, it was an ongoing conflict with the Brits. Though this is anyway unrelated as the implied context was with the Muslim world.

Re: Palestinian activist arrested by ICE while expecting U.S. citizenship interview

#100

Post by tasn » Wed, Apr 16, 2025, 11:36 AM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #93

chimineycricket wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2. Non-Jews have equal rights >I think what you're asking is: why is it OK to have the "right of return"...[because] Jews have been persecuted throughout history wherever they lived This is a contradiction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression_Olympics >Not one war started by Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing If you want to claim it wasn't the country of Israel, congratulations I gue…

The myth that Israel does not do apartheid in Israel proper has to be answered. First of all, one cannot excuse apartheid by drawing arbitrary borders and declare some of them as apartheid-free zones, while doing apartheid in others. That is not how apartheid works. But even if it did, Israel proper still has dozens of discriminatory laws[1] with a few more in the works. And even with out those, there are in practice…

The first item in the link you shared is revocation of citizenship/residency for people who were paid to commit a terrorist act in Israel. What's discriminatory about that?

Second law is about non kosher food in hospitals during Passover. A law that affects everyone, including secular Jews (majority in Israel). Doesn't discriminate against anyone. It's like saying that supermarkets being closed in Europe on Sundays (Church day) is discriminatory.

I can go one by one and comment on this list, but the first two are already ridiculous.

What's also not shown there: the rights of Jews and Christians in the Muslim world (and Palestine in particular) which are much worse. Not to mention the rights of gays, and other communities that are protected in Israel. Mind you, this is not whataboutism, as the people compiling these lists are often closely tied to the Muslim world, and Palestinian rule is the alternative that's suggested by Palestinian supporters.