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You'll never be Chinese

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Re: You'll never be Chinese

#121

Post by gbog »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #98
lionhearted wrote: post #17

Hmm. A strange article. A mix of really good points soaked in bitterness. I spend the bulk of my time in Beijing, Taipei, and Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia). My take is slightly different. Well, a lot is true. The property thing, definitely. The state industry takeovers is scary; you have to get a sense for what industries they don't mind foreigners in, and which they do. Media? Yeah, you don't want to own a media company in…

As mentioned in many posts, your history is a bit off. Also, my overtime work in Beijing doesn't make my girlfriend happy; she understandably gets very angry that I never make it home for dinner or put a strong wall between work and life, this is very important in Chinese culture and I feel violations are actually more acceptable in American culture. I guess everyone is different, its impossible to generalize. The co…

> most of the people in Beijing are migrant workers who do not have hukou; they are basically excluded from the community

That's not so simple. They belong to their own community of migrant workers and most are able to get community support when needed. They also become acclimated to Beijing and it is not unlikely their offspring will be Beijingers. I have a direct experience of that, our nanny is a typical migrant worker. has very good relations with our neighbors, who are of the oldest Beijing brand (they are Manchu). Disclaimer: we live in the hutong. It is very possible that life in new places is different.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#122

Post by travisp »

xentronium wrote: post #108
travisp wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't just a Chinese thing. I've experienced it personally in Russia, and I've heard of it in other countries too.

> I've experienced it personally in Russia I call bullshit. You get fined almost always for driving unbuckled. It's actually one of the better effects of bad and greedy traffic police, who will otherwise fine you at the first available possibility (and, sigh, oftentimes impose bribe on you).

That's kind of a rude response to someone relating a personal experience. Yes, I have personally experienced Russian drivers getting offended when I try to put on a seatbelt. Maybe it's changed from when I was there last 4 years ago as it's entirely possible that they've begun cracking down on it, but this was certainly the culture not very long ago (like much of the rest of the world). I'll also note that most of my time in cars was not in Moscow or St. Petersburg. This 2010 study suggests seatbelt use is rare in parts of Russia: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22414131

And here are similar experiences to mine: http://www.passportmagazine.ru/article/786/ http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&#3...?

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#123

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Shenglong wrote: post #113
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies still provide housing? Are you serious? That went out with the 90s in the big cities! And even then, how many people actually work for the government or an SOE qualify for this housing provided by the company? Its very easy to judge China through a western perspective; you just say "it was judged through a western perspective." Judging is always relative to a perspective and is useful to evaluate your situa…

I'm not taking offense in a patriotic stance. I'm offended because it's plain incorrect. I don't know if we're arguing the same thing, but I'm saying looking at China from a western perspective is misleading, and leads you to formulate judgments that are based on slanted information. It's much like how the average citizen believes he's knowledgeable about the economy. It's still commonplace for companies to provide h…

I think your information about China is quite outdated, or you are seeing it from a more biased perspective.

I'm a half-pat, and I don't get housing benefits; most of us don't get benefits beyond the the last two years, expats are different: they get juicy packages. Chinese employees get to contribute to a housing fund (as part of social security benefits), but as far as I can tell they don't get much from that; its basically state-mandated savings to buy a house in Beijing they'll never be able to afford. SOEs still give housing out (as well as government orgs like universities), but most people don't work for SOEs.

About education, the same problem applies to anyone without a hukou (foreigner or Chinese). Its quite ridiculous, we pay all of those taxes to keep society going and see nothing for it, and do you know how much tuition at an international school runs? I can't afford to even have kids unless I can swing a juicy expat package someday.

I'm ok with registering at the PSB when I move or once a year when my visa is renewed, but every month when I have to go on a trip? Even Switzerland's Controle de Habitant wasn't that extreme, annoying. And even worse, the policy differs between PSB offices, (Shanghai is better than Beijing) even in the same city (Haidian is better than Chaoyang)!

The paying of social security taxes for foreigners is a new thing this year, and they still don't know how it will work out. I don't mind paying taxes, I don't mind state funded retirement, or even the fake social health insurance. I just hate unfairness; every year the deal seems to get worse.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#124

Post by seanmcdirmid »

gbog wrote: post #121
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned in many posts, your history is a bit off. Also, my overtime work in Beijing doesn't make my girlfriend happy; she understandably gets very angry that I never make it home for dinner or put a strong wall between work and life, this is very important in Chinese culture and I feel violations are actually more acceptable in American culture. I guess everyone is different, its impossible to generalize. The co…

> most of the people in Beijing are migrant workers who do not have hukou; they are basically excluded from the community That's not so simple. They belong to their own community of migrant workers and most are able to get community support when needed. They also become acclimated to Beijing and it is not unlikely their offspring will be Beijingers. I have a direct experience of that, our nanny is a typical migrant w…

Not true. Children of migrant workers don't get hukou just for being born in Beijing. You basically have people who have never been anywhere outside of Beijing who have no hope of getting hukou; they are basically a multi-generational second class citizenry.

The hutongs are about the only place in Beijing where you can find high concentrations of Beijing'ers. Anywhere outside of the second ring road tends to be mostly migrants. Granted, some of these migrants are rich, live in nice apartments, and don't really have adjustment problems, but then again, there is quite a huge underclass in Beijing that has none of that.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#125

Post by dublinclontarf »

Shenglong wrote: post #85

Bitterly biased. The China that the author describes is not the China I've seen. Housing prices may be high, but he neglects to mention that it's common for companies to provide housing to their employees. Yes, people will ask you about your money - but that's culture, and it's not impolite. There are a lot of untruths in his article, but it's too long to pick apart. A big one, though, is about appreciation for forei…

>A big one, though, is about appreciation for foreigners. China does in fact have laws about foreigners

Non-Chinese are officially second class citizens(to use a western expression) if thats is what you mean by laws about foreigners . The Chinese do go about this in the nicest way possible of course but anyone who is not Chinese has little to no rights (in the way a Chinese person does).

I've recently returned from living in China (a tier 2 inland city) where I have been living with my wife (this is her hometown) for 3 years.

I found after running afoul of the administration in the college where I worked how fragile my stay in China really was. I had to leave the country (where my wife, her family, and my son were) within 10 days after losing my job.

Everything is fine in China as a foreigner, until it's not, and then it's awefull.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#126

Post by sampo »

ucee054 wrote: post #117
fring0 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is it is possible to write a similarly slanted article about the west pointing out only the negative things (and they are legion). The author has had some very bad experiences in China this has colored his views and is the basis for the many sweeping generalizations and unjustified statements in the article such as 'the world does not want to be led by China in the 21st century' or 'The domestic Chinese lowe…

Try being a raghead like me and going through transport security in Europe, then going through it in the USA, then comparing the experience. You may be disillusioned.

Just tell, how does going through transport security in China work for you?

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#128

Post by lamby »

cromwellian wrote: post #39
Jd wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there statistics that indicate the situation is improving? I'm not in Cali anymore but have Asian american male friends who like Caucasian women that would be interested in this.

I don't have any statistics, just anecdotes. I've just noticed an uptick in AM/WF couples. My neighbors across the screen. My friend who just got married. People I see at work. Without being too cynical, I attribute this to a natural outgrowth of the economic success of AMs, the rising tides in Asia, and more and more AMs appearing in media. (e.g. Daniel Dae Kim in Lost) Let's be honest, men's romantic liberty in cho…

> Let's be honest, men's romantic liberty in choosing mates is often proportional to economic success.

Possibly the kindest way I've ever seen that phrased.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#129

Post by tsotha »

smacktoward wrote: post #40
wensheng wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry, the government will never let the crash happen. Plus they are trying "tightening" the housing now. Stagnating might be a better word: neither let price fall nor let it rise too fast.

Don't worry, the government will never let the crash happen My bet would be these words were uttered right before every crash in history...

Yeah, the US government did its damnest to prevent the housing crash in the US, and they have a lot more money and experience with markets than the Chinese do. When the Chinese bubble pops it's going to blow the social fabric of the country apart.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#130

Post by barkingcat »

286c8cb04bda wrote: post #54
barkingcat wrote: post #42

Just remember, this too shall pass. You can't be Chinese right now, but that doesn't mean you'll never be Chinese. Governments do fall and rise at the drop of a hat in China. People know that right?

Being Chinese in China has almost nothing to do with the government. It's a cultural belief that's persisted for centuries. Don't expect that to change at "at the drop of a hat". It's not a particularly unusual belief, really. All cultures have an in-group/out-group division. OP is just missing traits this specific test requires.

A century is not a very long time in Chinese history. In fact, yes, for the Chinese, a century may very well be a "drop of a hat".

Never underestimate the possibilities of change in China.

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