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Steve Yegge: Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus

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Re: Steve Yegge: Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus

#121

Post by ryanricard »

nirvana wrote: post #100

I first noticed something like this, though I draw the lines differently, in the 1980s. What's interesting is that there has been a shift over the years to where "programming" has come ot have a strong ideological bias to only one type. The types I noticed then I call Cowboys and Architects. These are just terms I'm using for convenience, not meant as pejoratives. Cowboys are now more common: Some programmers write a…

I am fascinated at the idea that you wrote a 10KLOC iOS app in the time it took you to type it out. I had heard tales of programmers approaching the design, implementation, and then testing of a program as totally seperate steps, but only as a consequence of an environment that had severe technical limitations (IE, I'm going to hand my "code" over to the typist who will input it into the computer, which will then run it N hours later). To code in that manner intentionally sounds totally bonkers to me, although I accept your proposition that that may be a result of being raised as a Cowboy.

I'd love a series of technical blog posts about the iOS app. What artifacts did you create during the design phase? How many Modules/Features did you split the process in to (or did you do it all in one go)?

Re: Steve Yegge: Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus

#124

Post by smashing »

flatline3 wrote: post #117
cletus wrote: post #28

As much as some commenters are (weirdly?) railing against this classification scheme I think the underlying idea that software conservatism is about risk aversion is essentially accurate. Perhaps another way of framing this is to ask the question: are you optimizing for the best case or the worst case? This ultimately is a form of risk management. And I'm not talking in the algorithmic sense, meaning complexity expre…

Yegge took a massive shit on technical discourse, and if not countered, the ramifications thereof could be felt for years . His influence is disproportional to his value, and I am extremely disappointed to see anyone here taking his emotional arguments seriously. Unless firmly censured, I expect to see Yegge's ridiculous viral meme of "liberal vs. conservative" spread and repeated by inexperienced developers indefini…

But look at all those comments Yegge is getting. He has long been an engaging, comedic writer with a very technical slant, but this really pushes him into the mainstream. People will look forward to the Steve Yegge show providing them entertainment in the same way Mike Daisey provides entertainment through The Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs.

Re: Steve Yegge: Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus

#125

Post by rabbitfang »

cageface wrote: post #42
ezyang wrote: post #40

Hidden inside this fascinating screed is an announcement about the "Google Grok" project, which appears to be something of an Eclipse-killer for dynamic languages. It's good to hear that Google is working on this problem, and I'm interested to see what they come up with.

That was the most interesting point for me too. Mobile development has reminded me of the significant tooling benefits of static languages but also the verbosity and awkwardness of said languages. If I could have an IntelliJ-level IDE for Ruby or Python or JS I'd be very happy.

If I could have an IntelliJ-level IDE for Ruby or Python or JS I'd be very happy.

The company behind IntelliJ already makes IDEs for Ruby, Python and JS:

Python: Pycharm http://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/

Ruby: RubyMine http://www.jetbrains.com/ruby/

JS: Webstorm http://www.jetbrains.com/webstorm/

Re: Steve Yegge: Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus

#126

Post by duaneb »

alinajaf wrote: post #31
duaneb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ruby is more liberal than c (duck typing) Haskell is more liberal than ruby (functional programming) C is more liberal than Haskell (weak typing) Also, I am apparently a radically conservative programmer, but my political views in real life tend toward radical liberalism. I think any correlation says more about age than it does about politics.

> Haskell is more liberal than ruby (functional programming) Not according to the article, which is what my comment was in response to. > I think any correlation says more about age than it does about politics. Quite possible, I'm 26.

> Not according to the article, which is what my comment was in response to.

I see. Yes, Haskell meets all the criteria for a conservative language, emphasizing safety, and verifiability, and automated testing. However, purely anecdotally, I can't think of a single person I've worked for that uses C++ approving of Haskell because it is so radically different. But perhaps this doesn't matter.

Re: Steve Yegge: Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus

#127

Post by jeremiep »

flatline3 wrote: post #117
cletus wrote: post #28

As much as some commenters are (weirdly?) railing against this classification scheme I think the underlying idea that software conservatism is about risk aversion is essentially accurate. Perhaps another way of framing this is to ask the question: are you optimizing for the best case or the worst case? This ultimately is a form of risk management. And I'm not talking in the algorithmic sense, meaning complexity expre…

Yegge took a massive shit on technical discourse, and if not countered, the ramifications thereof could be felt for years . His influence is disproportional to his value, and I am extremely disappointed to see anyone here taking his emotional arguments seriously. Unless firmly censured, I expect to see Yegge's ridiculous viral meme of "liberal vs. conservative" spread and repeated by inexperienced developers indefini…

I couldn't disagree more with that.

From reading his other essays, it's obvious the guy has a broader perspective on programming than most software developers.

I believe it's experienced developers who will spread this because it takes experience in many different languages and paradigms to really understand what Steve described. I have different coding styles for Lisp, Haskell, D, Ruby and CoffeeScript for instance.

The foundations of software development are generally not well understood. Otherwise the vast majority of software out there would be more robust by a few orders of magnitude.

Steve at least offers a classification for the different styles found in programming communities today. He may not be right on spot, but at least it's a start.

Re: Steve Yegge: Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus

#128

Post by flatline3 »

jeremiep wrote: post #127
flatline3 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yegge took a massive shit on technical discourse, and if not countered, the ramifications thereof could be felt for years . His influence is disproportional to his value, and I am extremely disappointed to see anyone here taking his emotional arguments seriously. Unless firmly censured, I expect to see Yegge's ridiculous viral meme of "liberal vs. conservative" spread and repeated by inexperienced developers indefini…

I couldn't disagree more with that. From reading his other essays, it's obvious the guy has a broader perspective on programming than most software developers. I believe it's experienced developers who will spread this because it takes experience in many different languages and paradigms to really understand what Steve described. I have different coding styles for Lisp, Haskell, D, Ruby and CoffeeScript for instance.…

The two-axis political classifications discards all reason and nuance in favor of us-vs-them media sound bites.

The idea of applying two-axis classification to software development would laughable if it wasn't so dangerous in its attractiveness as an oversimplified tribal mental model.

> Steve at least offers a classification for the different styles found in programming communities today. He may not be right on spot, but at least it's a start.

No. It's not a start. It's a dangerous, dangerous viral meme that threatens to replace rational dialog with ridiculous emotionally-driven opinionated politicized tribalism, and I can't help but wonder if that's his intent.

It's a play out of cable news' playbook, and I for one don't want an environment for engineering discourse modeled on American politics.

I couldn't think less of Yegge as an engineer and a thinker than I do now.

Re: Steve Yegge: Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus

#129

Post by justanotheratom »

natrius wrote: post #112
justanotheratom wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Google Plus hold-out and it is sad to see that I am required to signup for Plus to read Yegge's blogs now.

Did you click the link? I can read it in both an incognito window and logged in to a Google account without Google+.

Funny its working now. Thanks for pointing out. Do you know what the default Plus policy is - are posts public by default or the other way around?

Re: Steve Yegge: Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus

#130

Post by natrius »

justanotheratom wrote: post #129
natrius wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you click the link? I can read it in both an incognito window and logged in to a Google account without Google+.

Funny its working now. Thanks for pointing out. Do you know what the default Plus policy is - are posts public by default or the other way around?

No idea.
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