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CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

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Re: CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

#111

It doesn't feel ambitious enough to me. Spend 10s of billions to get a less than 10x energy about 40 years after LHC reached its peak. Also planning of the next one should have happened while the last one was being commissioned to avoid the huge gap between them.

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Re: CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

#112
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The link mentions 100 meters depth. Without being an expert that sounds deep enough to withstand hurricanes and such. However 100m depth? For a structure _that_ size, which I think might contain high vacuum, let alone systems that might need humans to service when they break? What is the feasibility of that problem?

As mentioned in the linked presentation, they envision using interconnected 300m (1000ft) long segments that can be changed using ROVs, using technology that's already available for underwater pipelines. Also mentioned is that the LHC cryostats, some nice illustrations here[1], are very nearly neutrally buoyant. Given these would be built similarly, they wouldn't need significant infrastructure to keep them in place.…

"So no humans would need to go down there, if something breaks they could just replace the broken segment(s) and fix the broken one(s) on the surface."

This frankly is not possible. Colliders need constant maintenance. The "Collider in the Sea" is not a real proposal.

Re: CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I listened to her a lot recently because YouTube decided ever “next video” bump while I drove should be her. I hope there was _any other criteria_ at play here? Why would I not be surprised that the answer is "NO" for 99.9% of the population? The world is really doomed...

> The world is really doomed... Sadly, it absolutely 100% is. She's an amazing case of this. I'll spend the next 2 years gently walking people down from her clickbait, and I'll end up with net-negative karma for it. I honestly had given up entirely until I saw a subthread about a month ago where people who knew the area were exchanging info of lesser-known youtubers who come and clean up her messes after. The sad new…

Can you share the info about these other youtubers, or this subthread?

Re: CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

#114
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have repeatedly heard from people who work in physics research that she's optimized her content for maximum rage/anger/emotional response rather than accuracy, particularly as of late. The tidbits of truth and warranted skepticism lend the rest of it undue credibility. Sadly, good science reporting doesn't get the advertising revenue that manufactured-scandal tabloid-style reporting does. I think her critical persp…

These days she's independent of the field financially, and has been pretty forthright about condemning bad behavior within it. It's inevitable that insiders will turn on her, because she turned on them. They being angry about it doesn't mean anything by itself, you'd need to decide if her points are legitimate or not without reference to those she's criticising.

I wouldn't say they are angry about it, just disappointed that there's another mass media misinformation source to add to the pile. It's much harder to debunk poor quality material than it is to generate it, and I suspect many of them are busy enough as it is + would rather do something more productive with their time. Nobody gets into science to have low-grade spats with talking heads on the internet.

I have found that academics invite criticism--- indeed, peer review is founded on it--- but well-done scientific debate rarely generates the same click-through rate. It's hard, technical material rather than something to idly watch while you're eating, which is the caliber of the content here. Just compare it to, say, literature reviews from the field or comparisons with prior work in publications. It's not remotely as rigorous or well-founded.

Re: CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

#115
This is unreasonable spending. And I am saying this as someone who did his PhD at CERN, so I am shitting my old bed.

CERN is wonderful but the physics studied there are eons away from applications. This is not solid state physics where you can suddenly discover a great material. This is physics at such energies that we will not have anyone soon. Kinda like quasar astrophysics, about objects that are really far away.

The usual response is that this is core science. Yes it is, but not the core science we need today. We have a limited budget for science and a mammoth like CERN cannot swallow it all.

The other argument is that technology will get better. True. It can get better without the accelerator, though, if we really need it.

I loved my time there, truly fantastic but the costs are not sustainable with current budgets for science

Re: CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

#116
I was a physics student back when the SSC was cancelled. At the time it seemed like a terrible decision but years on I’m not sure the expense was worth it. In the end I think it worked out and was a good call to let the Europeans fund CERN and find the Higgs. I’m very pro science but I’ve come to a point where I’m asking is the juice worth the squeeze? I think beyond Higgs the juice is becoming harder to justify.

The answer for particle physics can’t be to build larger and larger circular machines. Rather that money would be better spent on accelerator research to enable smaller more practical machines at high energies. Such machines may have some practical spinoff uses such as how FNAL offers neutron therapy.

Re: CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

#117
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blissfully, I found an IEEE article that collects the stuff I'm aware of in one neat package. https://spectrum.ieee.org/supercolliders The shell games are: 1. claiming it is a proton collider[^1 source] designed to look for new particles [^2 comment]. 2. false equivalence between China putting in their latest 5 year plan to make a plan to make something that will transition to being a proton collider. And it's worse…

[1] Sabine says "It’s a two-phase project, the first one, called the FCC-ee would collide electrons and specifically measure the properties of the Higgs boson." approximately 20 seconds into the video. It's unfair to merely critique the headline. If you do not wish to watch the video, here is a transcript: https://www.youtube-transcript.io/videos/elvEcWc7U7c "This is very important work." is just an opinion. "The mor…

I'm not sure why you're addressing me or telling me I didn't watch the video, but I humbly request, on behalf of the community, that next time you've figured out what someone else did and want to announce it, you pause and reflect on: A) exactly what and whose words you're taking umbrage with B) if you are attempting to mind read.

Concretely:

If you don't think OP got the right understanding from the video, so their questions were fundamentally Wrong and Shouldn't Be Asked and Impugned Sabine by their very nature of being asked, that's fine. Own that.

If you think it's unfair of me to quote Sabine without quoting the entirety of a 30 minute transcript, well, more power to you.

But that doesn't mean I didn't watch it or whatever other crock is being imagined.

Just ask! :) Curiosity and discussion are why we're here. :)

Re: CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

#118
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world is really doomed... Sadly, it absolutely 100% is. She's an amazing case of this. I'll spend the next 2 years gently walking people down from her clickbait, and I'll end up with net-negative karma for it. I honestly had given up entirely until I saw a subthread about a month ago where people who knew the area were exchanging info of lesser-known youtubers who come and clean up her messes after. The sad new…

Can you share the info about these other youtubers, or this subthread?

I can't find the subthread, oddly. Really oddly...

They linked out to this Professor Dave @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70vYj1KPyT4 IIRC. (1M views!) He's got a couple more on it.

Note I'd never say she was a fraud but I also don't know what to do with someone who has grown into being Not Even Wrong regularly. This might be the only way, fire with fire, but it makes me squeamish.

Re: CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

#119
post #95
post #7

Before discussions go into some generic direction about the field. This is a huge feasibility study contain different aspects done by hundreds of people. People who are mostly interested about the physics case of FCC should read/skim at least through the first volume [1], second chapter (Specificities of the FCC physics case) the first four sections. This is about 35 pages with somehow accessible language to people w…

>hey plan to provide experiment agnostic and unified framework that is actually unified and user accessible. The field really need something like that, it is usually the pain point of most junior graduate student. The field suck at documentation and keep coherent software and write code in a bad way most of the time. I think they can have much better framework than Fermilab's art [2]. I don't think that I've ever hea…

I'd echo this somewhat. Wading into other people's projects I'm often like "wtf is this mess.. why are your variables named a, b and c?"

BUT.. some of the code that LLMs have spit out at me is absolutely wild in how well it is constructed, and it gives me real imposter syndrome when I see the occasions when the code is so much tighter and better than I would have personally crafted.

Re: CERN releases report on the feasibility of a possible Future Circular Collider

#120
What surprises me the most is the cost. This is considered to be one of the most expensive endeavors in science… but the first stage costs just about a billion a year?

Jeff Bezos (or any other billionaire) could pay for the whole of it, and it would be like me going for a coffee. The yearly cost is 1% of what DOGE allegedly saved, three Marvel movies, and less than the GDP of San Marino.

If one of the costliest ever scientific enterprises is this cheap, how many scientific advances are we leaving on the table? It makes me extremely sad.

*Disclaimer: I enjoy Marvel movies and don't particularly believe DOGE claims about saved money. But I wanted to give some scale of what a billion francs (now about 1.2 billion USD) are.

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