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Whenever: Typed and DST-safe datetimes for Python

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Re: Whenever: Typed and DST-safe datetimes for Python

#31

Post by matsemann »

mvanbaak wrote: post #27
apeters wrote: post #9

Am I the only one to stick with the std lib, read the docs and changelogs carefully, and implement functions I really need the way my application makes use of them? I learned the hard way, that dependencies kill projects. Not saying this isn't great, thanks for creating it! It does have its use cases, of course.

As others stated, there are many rough edges and footguns in the stdlib. BUT ... in my (and yours apparently) opinion, it's a matter of knowing those edges/guns, and work with them. Like you, I also prefer to create my own code around those instead of bringing in some library that brings in their own foot guns and possibly sub-dependencies and and and...

So your projects end up with their own "lib" of scattered time functions, possibly with new small bugs. I'd then rather have a proper well-tested and maintained library.

Re: Whenever: Typed and DST-safe datetimes for Python

#32

Post by globular-toast »

stavros wrote: post #21
apeters wrote: post #9

Am I the only one to stick with the std lib, read the docs and changelogs carefully, and implement functions I really need the way my application makes use of them? I learned the hard way, that dependencies kill projects. Not saying this isn't great, thanks for creating it! It does have its use cases, of course.

> Am I the only one to stick with the std lib, read the docs and changelogs carefully I work in healthcare. If I have a choice between "reading docs/changelogs carefully, implementing functions", and "adding an extra dependency", I'm taking the dependency every single time. I don't want footguns in my code, I don't want code I have to write and test myself, and I don't want to have to become an expert in a domain bef…

> I work in healthcare. If I have a choice between "reading docs/changelogs carefully, implementing functions", and "adding an extra dependency", I'm taking the dependency every single time.

This kinda sums up the sorry state of software engineering. People can't even be bothered to read docs but will just blindly install a package just because someone was able to package it and upload it to PyPI.

Taking on a dependency does not relieve you of reading docs, but it also adds a further burden as you now need to trust the code. The stdlib is much more heavily tested and documented than any 3rd party library will be.

Re: Whenever: Typed and DST-safe datetimes for Python

#33

Post by mr_mitm »

globular-toast wrote: post #32
stavros wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I the only one to stick with the std lib, read the docs and changelogs carefully I work in healthcare. If I have a choice between "reading docs/changelogs carefully, implementing functions", and "adding an extra dependency", I'm taking the dependency every single time. I don't want footguns in my code, I don't want code I have to write and test myself, and I don't want to have to become an expert in a domain bef…

> I work in healthcare. If I have a choice between "reading docs/changelogs carefully, implementing functions", and "adding an extra dependency", I'm taking the dependency every single time. This kinda sums up the sorry state of software engineering. People can't even be bothered to read docs but will just blindly install a package just because someone was able to package it and upload it to PyPI. Taking on a depende…

> People can't even be bothered to read docs but will just blindly install a package just because someone was able to package it and upload it to PyPI.

That's a straw man argument. No one said "blindly". You can very well carefully consider the pros and cons of adding a dependency and arrive at the conclusion that it makes sense. Many PyPI packages are in the Debian stable repositories, you could use that as an additional barrier as well.

Re: Whenever: Typed and DST-safe datetimes for Python

#35

Post by mvanbaak »

matsemann wrote: post #31
mvanbaak wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others stated, there are many rough edges and footguns in the stdlib. BUT ... in my (and yours apparently) opinion, it's a matter of knowing those edges/guns, and work with them. Like you, I also prefer to create my own code around those instead of bringing in some library that brings in their own foot guns and possibly sub-dependencies and and and...

So your projects end up with their own "lib" of scattered time functions, possibly with new small bugs. I'd then rather have a proper well-tested and maintained library.

The "lib" one needs for date time functions is as good as non-existent.

But yeah, you will have to create tests for the codepath, instead of relying on the tests the library maintainers create.

Re: Whenever: Typed and DST-safe datetimes for Python

#36

Post by stavros »

globular-toast wrote: post #32
stavros wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I the only one to stick with the std lib, read the docs and changelogs carefully I work in healthcare. If I have a choice between "reading docs/changelogs carefully, implementing functions", and "adding an extra dependency", I'm taking the dependency every single time. I don't want footguns in my code, I don't want code I have to write and test myself, and I don't want to have to become an expert in a domain bef…

> I work in healthcare. If I have a choice between "reading docs/changelogs carefully, implementing functions", and "adding an extra dependency", I'm taking the dependency every single time. This kinda sums up the sorry state of software engineering. People can't even be bothered to read docs but will just blindly install a package just because someone was able to package it and upload it to PyPI. Taking on a depende…

> The stdlib is much more heavily tested and documented than any 3rd party library will be.

You initially said you write your own code instead of using libraries, I replied to that, and now it's that you use the stdlib instead of libraries. I won't argue against shifting goalposts.

Re: Whenever: Typed and DST-safe datetimes for Python

#37

Post by raverbashing »

xandrius wrote: post #30
apeters wrote: post #9

Am I the only one to stick with the std lib, read the docs and changelogs carefully, and implement functions I really need the way my application makes use of them? I learned the hard way, that dependencies kill projects. Not saying this isn't great, thanks for creating it! It does have its use cases, of course.

Creating from scratch also creates hidden debt, it's just moved onto yourself. Especially when working with dates and timezones.

A library that goes "poof" when you need to upgrade it is also a hidden debt

Re: Whenever: Typed and DST-safe datetimes for Python

#38

Post by jethkl »

stavros wrote: post #21
apeters wrote: post #9

Am I the only one to stick with the std lib, read the docs and changelogs carefully, and implement functions I really need the way my application makes use of them? I learned the hard way, that dependencies kill projects. Not saying this isn't great, thanks for creating it! It does have its use cases, of course.

> Am I the only one to stick with the std lib, read the docs and changelogs carefully I work in healthcare. If I have a choice between "reading docs/changelogs carefully, implementing functions", and "adding an extra dependency", I'm taking the dependency every single time. I don't want footguns in my code, I don't want code I have to write and test myself, and I don't want to have to become an expert in a domain bef…

My hope is that a lib like this one or similar could rally mindshare and become integrated as the new standard, and adopted by the wider developer community. In near term, it comes down to trade-offs. I see no decision that works for all use cases. Dependencies introduce ticking time bombs, stdlibs should be correct and intuitive, but at least when not they are usually well tested and maintained, but when stdlib don't meet urgent production needs you have to do something.

Link to Tom Scott & Computerphile from 10y ago on tz madness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5wpm-gesOY

Re: Whenever: Typed and DST-safe datetimes for Python

#39

Post by raverbashing »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #18
apeters wrote: post #9

Am I the only one to stick with the std lib, read the docs and changelogs carefully, and implement functions I really need the way my application makes use of them? I learned the hard way, that dependencies kill projects. Not saying this isn't great, thanks for creating it! It does have its use cases, of course.

There are so many footguns in the datetime lib. That's why I use a Flake8 plugin to prohibit especially egregious footguns. https://github.com/jkittner/flake8-ban-utcnow

Honestly yeah who in tarnation created that function and called it utcnow

These things are really frustrating

Re: Whenever: Typed and DST-safe datetimes for Python

#40

Post by [deleted] »

stavros wrote: post #36
globular-toast wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I work in healthcare. If I have a choice between "reading docs/changelogs carefully, implementing functions", and "adding an extra dependency", I'm taking the dependency every single time. This kinda sums up the sorry state of software engineering. People can't even be bothered to read docs but will just blindly install a package just because someone was able to package it and upload it to PyPI. Taking on a depende…

> The stdlib is much more heavily tested and documented than any 3rd party library will be. You initially said you write your own code instead of using libraries, I replied to that, and now it's that you use the stdlib instead of libraries. I won't argue against shifting goalposts.

[deleted]
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