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You'll never be Chinese

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Re: You'll never be Chinese

#21

Post by taejo »

lionhearted wrote: post #17

Hmm. A strange article. A mix of really good points soaked in bitterness. I spend the bulk of my time in Beijing, Taipei, and Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia). My take is slightly different. Well, a lot is true. The property thing, definitely. The state industry takeovers is scary; you have to get a sense for what industries they don't mind foreigners in, and which they do. Media? Yeah, you don't want to own a media company in…

Some good points, but you're mistaken about Mandarin: Mandarin is a Sinitic language, related to Cantonese, Minnan, etc. (and also to Tibetan); it is unrelated to Manchurian, which is a Tungusic language and is now almost extinct (Wikipedia says there are around 70 speakers).

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#22

Post by jisaacstone »

Take a moment and conciser how a similar piece, written of the United states around the turn of the last century, might read.

Remember the 'roaring 20s?' Materialistic society, ambivalence about foreign affairs, widespread corruption, distrust of foreigners. A Chinese who owned a tea shop in a small town may well have to beg for a renewed lease, yes?

Well, China is not the United States, but lets put things in perspective. At the moment neither the leaders nor the people of China want to be a 'world leader' so why do we keep talking about it as if they do? China has its own problems and most Chinese are well aware of it.

China is not yet a rich country. Its Per Capita GDP (PPP) is about the same as Ecuador or Belize.

Right now things in China are not so great. It seems the Conservatives are back in power and so there has been some increased restrictions of freedom after a couple decades of improvement. Corruption continues to be a problem. The price of groceries, as well as property, has been increasing.

But the overall trend is upward. The author of this piece has fallen afoul of the Guanxi networks of business and politics in China. Sorry, yes, they don't play fair. But I am hopeful at the turn of the next century China will be as prosperous and egalitarian as my own United States of America.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#23

Post by jerf »

guscost wrote: post #15
chaostheory wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because it is impossible to become Chinese. I feel that this only applies for the elite, especially when there's a lot of political infighting; marrying an outsider will weaken the whole family which is really bad in a low trust society but that's another topic. This is not true for all social levels of China. China has practiced for what my inte…

In all fairness, many Europeans (and Americans, of course) are "somewhat racist" too.

The word is "human".

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#24

Post by w1ntermute »

lionhearted wrote: post #17

Hmm. A strange article. A mix of really good points soaked in bitterness. I spend the bulk of my time in Beijing, Taipei, and Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia). My take is slightly different. Well, a lot is true. The property thing, definitely. The state industry takeovers is scary; you have to get a sense for what industries they don't mind foreigners in, and which they do. Media? Yeah, you don't want to own a media company in…

> Likewise, Mandarin is the Manchu language... the ethnic minority that conquered China and became the Qing. The Han (majority) now speaks the minority's language

Say what? Mandarin Chinese was originally spoken by Han Chinese only and is nothing like the original language spoken by the Manchu (save for a few loanwords). The Manchu language is from the Tungusic language family, and has absolutely no genealogical relation to Mandarin or any other Sino-Tibetan languages.

As it says on Wikipedia[0]:

> By the end of the 19th century the [Manchu] language was so moribund that even at the office of the Shengjing (Shenyang) general, the only documents written in Manchu (rather than Chinese) would be the memorials wishing the emperor long life; at the same time period, the archives of the Hulan banner detachment in Heilongjiang show that only 1% of the bannermen could read Manchu, and no more than 0.2% could speak it.

Manchu now has ~20 native speakers, with its closest non-endangered relative being Xibe, with ~30,000 native speakers[1].

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_language#History_and_si...

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xibe_language

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#25

Post by analyst74 »

Even though Chinese ideals/opinions tend to be NOT as diversified as, say Canadians, doesn't mean all Chinese think the same.

Some of the main causes, and by no means the only causes for "racism":

1, those you don't understand, you don't trust -- vast of Chinese have not met many foreigners and Chinese culture tend to differ greatly from western cultures.

2, as noted, China is a very segregated country, you get discriminated against for all sorts of reasons. But if you are from a powerful American family, you will find your respect in China; if you are a poor China man, even your (slightly better off) neighbours would look down upon you.

Same reason Jd's love could not marry him, she will not marry another China man either, if he is not from a respectable family or occupying a respectable position.

On a final note, I don't believe in racism. Not that racism does not exist, but it's too easy of an explanation for your misfortunes; It's too easy to blame something you cannot change and call it a day. Real life is a lot more complex than that, and it's best to look for resolvable problems and fix them, increasing your chance of success, than to blame someone else.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#26

Post by codegeek »

diminish wrote: post #19

"blowing your nose in a handkerchief is disgusting." I am curious, where in the world is that acceptable (especially during lunch) and where disgusting..

Blowing your nose in public is disgusting to me personally. I dont care if you use a napkin or hankerchief whatever. I am amazed to see people blowing their nose in public without any embarassment.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#27

Post by lionhearted »

w1ntermute wrote: post #24
lionhearted wrote: post #17

Hmm. A strange article. A mix of really good points soaked in bitterness. I spend the bulk of my time in Beijing, Taipei, and Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia). My take is slightly different. Well, a lot is true. The property thing, definitely. The state industry takeovers is scary; you have to get a sense for what industries they don't mind foreigners in, and which they do. Media? Yeah, you don't want to own a media company in…

> Likewise, Mandarin is the Manchu language... the ethnic minority that conquered China and became the Qing. The Han (majority) now speaks the minority's language Say what? Mandarin Chinese was originally spoken by Han Chinese only and is nothing like the original language spoken by the Manchu (save for a few loanwords). The Manchu language is from the Tungusic language family, and has absolutely no genealogical rela…

You're right, my mistake. It was largely standardized under the Qing Dynasty --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese#Koin.C3.A9_of_...

-- but that's not where it originated. My mistake, good correction.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#28

Post by fr0sty »

jisaacstone wrote: post #22

Take a moment and conciser how a similar piece, written of the United states around the turn of the last century, might read. Remember the 'roaring 20s?' Materialistic society, ambivalence about foreign affairs, widespread corruption, distrust of foreigners. A Chinese who owned a tea shop in a small town may well have to beg for a renewed lease, yes? Well, China is not the United States, but lets put things in perspe…

> Remember the 'roaring 20s?'

Yes.

Remember what followed? The Great Depression.

The trend in China may be upward but is that because of real growth or just due to the inflation of a huge bubble?

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#29

Post by andrewcooke »

we do tend to project our own desires on other people. i remember a colleague telling me how disappointed he was with chile because the same people who had overthrown a fascist dictator were now interested in worldly things like cars and clothes.

there's something of that in this article, i think.

also, it's very hard to be neutral when you live in a place. and living in a foreign place is hard (more for some than others, of course). it's easy to bear grudges, no matter how aware you are that "it's just cultural differences".

huh. voted down for that? sigh...

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#30

Post by w1ntermute »

lionhearted wrote: post #27
w1ntermute wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Likewise, Mandarin is the Manchu language... the ethnic minority that conquered China and became the Qing. The Han (majority) now speaks the minority's language Say what? Mandarin Chinese was originally spoken by Han Chinese only and is nothing like the original language spoken by the Manchu (save for a few loanwords). The Manchu language is from the Tungusic language family, and has absolutely no genealogical rela…

You're right, my mistake. It was largely standardized under the Qing Dynasty -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese#Koin.C3.A9_of_... -- but that's not where it originated. My mistake, good correction.

You were also incorrect in stating that the Forbidden City was built by the Yuan dynasty. Although there was an Imperial City (known as "Khanbaliq", meaning "great residence of the Khan" in Turkic languages) built by the Yuan at the same location, the Forbidden City itself was built by the Yongle Emperor, the third emperor of the Ming dynasty. The name "Forbidden City" did not exist until the Ming dynasty either. Since the Ming were ethnically Han, "forbidden" did not mean "forbidden to the Han". According to Wikipedia[0]:

> The Forbidden City, as the residence of the terrestrial emperor, was its earthly counterpart. Jin, or "Forbidden", referred to the fact that no-one could enter or leave the palace without the emperor's permission.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_City#Name

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