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BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing the long term vision is phones and cars will receive broadcast television because traditional TVs are usually pretty stationary objects? It sounds like a hail mary. How many people use the fm radio transceivers in their smartphone? Maybe it's a total re-imagining of what to do with high power terrestrial band broadcasting?

Or a way to try to preserve ownership of some spectrum. IMO it may follow the same route as HD Radio adoption.

I have that in my Hyundai Kona. It's fascinating to hear what's on those stations. I can't imagine simultaneous listenership numbers ever breaking 100.

Every time I show someone I first have to introduce the concept of it existing. And these are technical people.

Re: BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

#42
tldr; BPS is Broadcast Positioning System. Same principle as GPS: a known waveform is used to triangulate position and time. Advantage: indoor available, less easy to jam/spoof due to high tx power of broadcasting stations. BPS can be added to ATSC 3.0 Next Gen TV signal which is rolled out since 2019 in the US.

Current planning is public availability in 2027-2029.

A good gov presentation with an overview and technical details is here [1].

[1] https://www.gps.gov/governance/advisory/meetings/2022-11/mat...

Re: BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

#43
post #15

I hope it will still be possible to receive a BPS timing signal privately and anonymously with ATSC 3 like one can with GPS. ATSC 3 has the Dedicated Return Channel because marketers “““need””” to spy on every-fucking-thing we do: https://www.atsc.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/A323-2024-04... “Conventional linear TV services alone (albeit ultra-high-definition) may not be sufficient to sustain the terrestrial broadc…

Wait, to be clear, this 'dedicated return channel' is just for TVs to broadcast back to the station that they're watching the adverts? I thought ATSC 3.0 was going to rely on IP backhaul for that. Actually broadcasting back seems... impractical at best. I mean, let's keep in mind, even ATSC 1.0 had really awful reception issues; compared to analog NTSC where there was enough redundancy that you could just tune into a…

Ironically there's no redundancy in NTSC. There are layers of information and they degrade downward until you have just a black and white picture with no sound.

In ATSC there is two types of forward error correction on the digital bitstream. The problem it faces is it sits in the same channel allocations as NTSC while having to deliver significantly more information than NTSC. That and the actual digital modulation used is not as ideal for receivers to capture.

Re: BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

#44
I want to like this — I think having ground-based alternatives to GPS and other space-based PNT systems is a very good thing! But after reading the paper at https://www.nab.org/bps/Broadcast_Positioning_System_Using_A... and other BPS information on the NAB's website, I think the NAB is being wildly optimistic about BPS:

• ATSC 3.0's physical layer can already transmit GPS time in a way that receivers could get it back out. What BPS brings to the table is a requirement and specification for accurately and consistently filling in the physical layer preamble fields containing the time data, along with a new physical layer pipe (think "low-level data stream") that contains additional information about the transmitter and, optionally, its neighboring transmitters.

• BPS is capable of producing time fixes when the receiver only has a lock on one source. This isn't surprising at all — GPS receivers can do the same thing. But either type of receiver with only one source would see a clock offset proportional to the path delay, which it wouldn't be able to compute and back out without knowing its position.

• BPS is only designed for 2-D position fixes. While that's a reasonable design decision (the vertical position error would be massive), it also makes BPS less useful for the NAB's "indoor positioning for first responders" use case, especially in areas with multi-story buildings.

• The need to receive and process/decode multiple, most likely non-adjacent 6 MHz channels for positioning increases receiver complexity and cost.

• The NAB claims that 1 kilometer of separation between two BPS transmitters is "sufficient for useful position determination." I don't buy it, especially in the face of poor transmitter geometry.

• They note that 16 TV stations in the New York City area broadcast from One World Trade Center, so for the purposes of BPS, they're effectively one station. This kind of transmitter colocation is incredibly common, both in urban areas (ten TV stations broadcast from Sutro Tower in San Francisco) and in more rural areas (six TV stations in the Roanoke-Lynchburg DMA broadcast from towers within ~1 mile of each other on the ridgeline of Poor Mountain). Even if every ATSC TV station became an ATSC 3.0 w/ BPS transmitter, bad transmitter geometries would destroy BPS's position accuracy in lots of markets.

• What's the business case for broadcasters? BPS won't be free for broadcasters to implement, and there doesn't seem to be a path to it generating revenue except for a hand-wavy "maybe one day televisions will be able to determine their locations without Internet connections using BPS, and then broadcasters can do location-targeted advertising with those TVs!"

My uncharitable take is that BPS will never be a usable standalone PNT system. A timing system in the "rebroadcasts GPS" sense? Maybe. Standalone positioning? No way. Broadcasters implementing BPS (or ATSC 3.0 at all) without being forced to by the government? I don't see it.

Re: BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

#45
post #21

High-power, and ideally authenticated, alternatives to space-based GNSS are desperately needed, given the sharp uptick in jamming and spoofing incidents in many places. In a true "end of history" moment, the US and other NATO members discontinued both of their ground-based systems (which are inherently harder to jam due to their much higher transmission power, since transmitters are not power limited) – Omega in the…

You can't really beat a jammer, sure you can compete for power output, but there is no real stopping it.

Aircraft and military positioning concepts are evolving towards more map and dead reckoning, lessening the benefit of GPS jamming.

Re: BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Controlled by other nation states.

Galileo. Controlled by the EU, and therefore a better choice than GPS, since the United States is no longer trustworthy.

It's a little unclear to me from reading the Wikipedia page; is it fully functional today, and worldwide? It'd be cool if my phone showed me which systems it was using at any time, but I have chosen The One True Apple Way so I don't think that'll come any time soon

Re: BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

#47
post #21

High-power, and ideally authenticated, alternatives to space-based GNSS are desperately needed, given the sharp uptick in jamming and spoofing incidents in many places. In a true "end of history" moment, the US and other NATO members discontinued both of their ground-based systems (which are inherently harder to jam due to their much higher transmission power, since transmitters are not power limited) – Omega in the…

You can't really beat a jammer, sure you can compete for power output, but there is no real stopping it. Aircraft and military positioning concepts are evolving towards more map and dead reckoning, lessening the benefit of GPS jamming.

The reason that dead reckoning was inaccurate was because of clock and vector inaccuracies. Looking at the advances in clockpieces and gyroscopes (both of these has benefitted over the optical revolution) over the years, I am not shocked that dead reckoning is back in vogue.

Re: BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Controlled by other nation states.

Galileo. Controlled by the EU, and therefore a better choice than GPS, since the United States is no longer trustworthy.

Honestly how trustworthy was the US before? Are we supposed to be completely fine with PRISM and XKeyscore now?

Re: BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... and that's one of the most innocuous new "features" in ATSC 3.0. Almost everything I've seen (besides BPS, and maybe HDR if you're one of the few who has a really good home theater setup) is a benefit for broadcasters and advertisers, and a bit worse for consumers (especially requiring new hardware/decoders... and sometimes persistent Internet connections!).

Same feeling here. ATSC 3.0 with DRM and persistent Internet requirements tells me this is going to be the downfall of OTA television. I can see ATSC 4.0 being a discounted ISP subscription paired with some OTA location checks via BPS.

So atsc 3 won't work unless you have some continuous "i'm user xyz watching this channel at time x.y.z" going back to the broadcaster?

Why would anyone use atsc 3? It's not free over the air, you can't spoof it?

Re: BPS is a GPS alternative that nobody's heard of

#50

Slide deck of BPS (Broadcast Postioning System) https://www.gps.gov/governance/advisory/meetings/2022-11/mat...

Thanks for sharing this. It creates a clear picture of its use cases and roll out plans.

GPS is such a critical infrastructure component to modern society- knowing that a redundancy system like this is in the works is great.

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