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Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

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Re: Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

#41
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you just described is an idea that's around intellectual circles about the nature of power in this era. It's the idea behind the book "Ipnocrazia" (not yet released), which gained fame around europe and south america. Citing from the top of my head: "Simulation isn't imitating the real anymore, simulation precedes the real" If I understand it right, tragedy is first simulated. Once the simulation is bought by th…

Isn’t that Baudrillard?

Yup, sounds like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation

Re: Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

#42
post #31
post #23

The "terror of global catastrophe" is what doomscroller media constantly hammers onto its readers. And once someone has "bought in", it's impossible to reason with them. They'll just forever spread anxiety around them. What's interesting is how it happens. Take someone who is mentally stable and subject them to a terminally online lifestyle for a year or two. They will have tons of anxiety about all sorts of things,…

What you just described is an idea that's around intellectual circles about the nature of power in this era. It's the idea behind the book "Ipnocrazia" (not yet released), which gained fame around europe and south america. Citing from the top of my head: "Simulation isn't imitating the real anymore, simulation precedes the real" If I understand it right, tragedy is first simulated. Once the simulation is bought by th…

That assumes a level of structure and control to society that simply doesn’t exist.

I don’t know why people so often fall into the trap of assuming someone or something is running things, but chaos seems to be anathema to how people perceive the world. God(s), fate, luck, karma, magic etc have been supplanted by the everything from hidden cabals, aliens, etc but I don’t think the underlying psychology is really any different.

Re: Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

#43
post #42
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you just described is an idea that's around intellectual circles about the nature of power in this era. It's the idea behind the book "Ipnocrazia" (not yet released), which gained fame around europe and south america. Citing from the top of my head: "Simulation isn't imitating the real anymore, simulation precedes the real" If I understand it right, tragedy is first simulated. Once the simulation is bought by th…

That assumes a level of structure and control to society that simply doesn’t exist. I don’t know why people so often fall into the trap of assuming someone or something is running things, but chaos seems to be anathema to how people perceive the world. God(s), fate, luck, karma, magic etc have been supplanted by the everything from hidden cabals, aliens, etc but I don’t think the underlying psychology is really any d…

The world is chaotic, but that doesn't mean power is symmetric between everyone.

Re: Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

#44
post #19

If no one told me about this being about schizophrenia, I would interpret Figure 3 as a categorization of american movies and series.

The standard DSM-5 delusions are are "bizarre, jealousy, erotomanic, grandiose, control, reference, persecutory, somatic, thought broadcasting, and insertion". Those covers a sizable fraction of Hollywood film plots. That says something important about something.

Re: Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

#45
post #22

Has anyone looked at similar studies from, say, five years ago? I worry that half of what was labeled “delusional” back then is now a widely accepted opinion. Feels like we're one step away from a follow-up paper titled "We regret to inform you: The paranoid were just early." Not saying everything turns out to be true - just that social consensus tends to shift a lot faster than clinical definitions.

The clinical definition of delusion includes social consensus. From DSM-5: "Delusions are deemed bizarre if they are clearly implausible and not understandable to same-culture peers and do not derive from ordinary life experiences. […] The distinction between a delusion and a strongly held idea is sometimes difficult to make and depends in part on the degree of conviction with which the belief is held despite clear o…

That's an escape hatch for religion.

Re: Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

#46
post #42
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you just described is an idea that's around intellectual circles about the nature of power in this era. It's the idea behind the book "Ipnocrazia" (not yet released), which gained fame around europe and south america. Citing from the top of my head: "Simulation isn't imitating the real anymore, simulation precedes the real" If I understand it right, tragedy is first simulated. Once the simulation is bought by th…

That assumes a level of structure and control to society that simply doesn’t exist. I don’t know why people so often fall into the trap of assuming someone or something is running things, but chaos seems to be anathema to how people perceive the world. God(s), fate, luck, karma, magic etc have been supplanted by the everything from hidden cabals, aliens, etc but I don’t think the underlying psychology is really any d…

I think you are making some assumptions there. All of the things the parent comment mentioned can come about through emergent behaviors. Every actor operating independently yet influenced towards a certain direction via the incentives/disincentives that the system provides them.

Re: Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

#47

Has anyone looked at similar studies from, say, five years ago? I worry that half of what was labeled “delusional” back then is now a widely accepted opinion. Feels like we're one step away from a follow-up paper titled "We regret to inform you: The paranoid were just early." Not saying everything turns out to be true - just that social consensus tends to shift a lot faster than clinical definitions.

I think in many circumstances certain outcomes emerged because the paranoid willed it into existence. I get the feeling there are a lot doomsayers who secretly want the end of civilization to occur so that they can finally act out their fantasies, delusions, say they were right, etc.

Re: Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good insight, thanks. I've been struggling with existential dread related to https://ai-2027.com/ - trying to refute the arguments is exhausting, I should probably just ignore it and get on with my life.

Fears about AI misalignment look like a modern, secular Pascal's Wager. It's hedge against a low-probability, infinite-cost outcome. The Rationalist version builds a matrix where one cell is -inf, and from that, derives an imperative to act, regardless of how speculative the premise is. However, once you admit infinite utilities and epistemic humility about probabilities, you can justify literally anything. The same…

AGI does sound a lot like a "psychological crutch" when it is pointed at as the answer for wicked problems like climate change. With faith in AGI, nothing else really matters because we can eventually surrender ourselves to the superior direction and interventions of this god we have created. There's no point worrying about anything else.

Human technology has evolved significantly in the last few thousand years but we are all the same religious fruitcakes we've always been, whether or not we can see it.

Re: Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

#49
post #45
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The clinical definition of delusion includes social consensus. From DSM-5: "Delusions are deemed bizarre if they are clearly implausible and not understandable to same-culture peers and do not derive from ordinary life experiences. […] The distinction between a delusion and a strongly held idea is sometimes difficult to make and depends in part on the degree of conviction with which the belief is held despite clear o…

That's an escape hatch for religion.

I always wondered if there was a clinical basis for that escape hatch or if the drafting committee felt it was just too contentious to go there.

Re: Delusional themes may be more varied than we thought

#50
post #23

The "terror of global catastrophe" is what doomscroller media constantly hammers onto its readers. And once someone has "bought in", it's impossible to reason with them. They'll just forever spread anxiety around them. What's interesting is how it happens. Take someone who is mentally stable and subject them to a terminally online lifestyle for a year or two. They will have tons of anxiety about all sorts of things,…

The tragedy is in the flawed thinking this type of article promotes to the layperson.

A professional has a duty of care to diagnose correctly, delusion by its very definition is a false belief that is believed to be true. The professional may lose their license if they do not diagnose correctly.

The layperson will read this and say, global catastrophe, fear of poisoning, persecution etc, and discount/nullify these entire categories regardless of whether they may be true or false given the circumstances. They choose to ignore it, and worse through nullification compulse others towards that false belief.

Now when it does happen to be true because hey, WW2 happened, and hey Hitler's rise to power followed milestones which Trump has been following, or better yet the collapse of the currency which is a known fact to happen and based in science and history when money-printing gets out of control... these fears are warranted, and should be listened to and inspire action to correct, but these type of articles condition people to discount and nullify such things and by extension ensuring those things happen when the circumstances are true because they have blinded themselves.

That's how evil works in people. It is a self-blinding to the consequences of destructive acts, to the point where those acts are repeated until they are forcefully stopped.

A fear of poisoning may be quite relevant in cases of new technology where we have no frame of reference for adequate safety because its new, like those who are part of the vaccine injured.

I think its quite important for every one today to objectively revisit their sentiment and beliefs, following Descartes Method.

Many of the things believed today by many are quite delusional, and mass delusion does happen in systems where the people have been exposed to torture whether they know it or not.

The delusional don't base their measure in objective external reality.

Robert Lifton, Robert Cialdini, Joost Meerloo, are well established authors who touch on the elements of torture, structure, and clustering.

If you've been significantly downvoted for a personal opinion, technically you've been exposed to torture.

Few in fact realize this though because its indirect, and most people won't follow the indirections back. It takes advantage of a strategy which Nazi's, and Mao used, but also the Stasi perfected, and really everyone uses today in sensitive positions.

The separation of objectionable concerns.

As for why we see this in so many online platforms. Its 5GW, and the platform maintainers are complicit, either through a corruption by dependency scheme, or just improper priorities believing its better to do or provide something than nothing even if they can't solve the problem. There is a financial interest towards this which drives this forward.

Either way, action or inaction is a choice they made. Regardless of initial hope, destructive outcomes (negligence) and intent (choice to act or not) turn this into malice/malevolence. Even if they have isolated themselves so they don't know willfully, they are still accountable for their actions and choices.

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