Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic • Hacker News Board

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#141

Post by jmward01 » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:47 PM UTC

flomo wrote: post #81

SequoiaHope wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a time in between, where electric streetcars (trains) were a common mode of transport. But those got torn up for cars. That’s a real tragedy in hindsight.

That's the myth. Streetcars were actually torn up because busses were much cheaper, there was no conspiracy. The streetcars were also old and cold and ppl hated them. (I lived in a streetcar part of SF, and loved it, fwiw. But the only reason it's still there is a tunnel.)

That is a statement that really needs citation and qualification to back it up. I'd argue that 'cheaper' is used in a vacuum here. By that I mean that the point of mass transit isn't how much it costs, but how much value it provides. By that measure the bus services that replaced streetcars and other mass transit really doesn't stack up. Busses have led to much lower ridership which has led to a massive amount of bad secondary effects. Looking at how congestion pricing in NYC has increased mass transit use AND economic activity it is pretty clear that 'cheaper' has led to secondary effects that far outweigh any narrow operational gains from switching to busses.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#142

Post by chowells » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:48 PM UTC

bri3d wrote: post #73

trollbridge wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's due to the regenerative braking, which transmits more power via the wheels when decelerating. Most ICE cards don't have regenerative braking; hybrids tend to.

This doesn't make sense. Energy in the system is conserved. On an ICE car, brakes convert the energy to heat. On an EV, motors convert the energy to electricity. The tires experience the same net force. EVs wear tires more quickly, in general, because they are very heavy and produce more torque (and drivers are more likely to request that torque, also).

But the brakes experience less work, and so there is less combined brake and tire dust for distance traveled.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#143

Post by andrepd » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:48 PM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #121

usrusr wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lighter cars, really, that's it. Make vehicles that match the transportation case in question instead of palaces on wheels that carry battery sized for solving some once in a year use case. And/or make them go slower.

It would be incredible if somebody invented a light car, that would transport one or two people and some groceries. Maybe with two wheels instead of four to take up less space. Hmmm why has nobody invented this?

Maybe even some sort of pedal-powered contraption. Perhaps we could even build lanes for these bi-cycles instead of 22 lane highways.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#144

Post by eesmith » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:50 PM UTC

Kavelach wrote: post #52

ARandomerDude wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the joy of destroying your neighbor’s property just for fun. Is he a working-class guy, struggling to pay his bills? Too bad. Because nothing says “let’s build a better future” than a riot.

Massive strikes that are hard to contain got use the 8 hour work day, weekends and a lot of labor rights. Civil right movements won only because a huge portion of them were militant (back then even the National Rifle Association supported banning guns). A violent status quo necessitates violence to achieve change.

The suffrage movement in the UK also had a militant component:

> The tactics of the [Women’s Social and Political Union] included shouting down speakers, hunger strikes, stone-throwing, window-smashing, and arson of unoccupied churches and country houses. In Belfast, when in 1914 the Ulster Unionist Council appeared to renege on an earlier commitment to women's suffrage,[27] the WSPU's Dorothy Evans (a friend of the Pankhursts) declared an end to "the truce we have held in Ulster." In the months that followed WSPU militants (including Elizabeth Bell, the first woman in Ireland to qualify as a doctor and gynaecologist) were implicated in a series of arson attacks on Unionist-owned buildings and on male recreational and sports facilities.

This influenced the US suffrage movement, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_the_Unit... , even during WWI: "groups like the National Woman's Party that continued militant protests during wartime were criticized by other suffrage groups and the public, who viewed it as unpatriotic."

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#145

Post by notyourwork » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:50 PM UTC

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #60

JasonBorne wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can. Slowly over time we need to raise awareness of the benefits of this.

Just tax road consumption so people who use the roads actually pay for them. It is amazing what this has achieved in Manhattan.

Poor taxes are not a great solution with respect to equality.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#146

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:51 PM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #108

FredPret wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s because they weigh more

“They weigh more” is something I kinda have a problem with. People act like EVs are these behemoths, but your typical EV is hardly an outlier. The Tesla Model 3, for example, weighs as much as a Honda CRV. Yes, that’s a different car class; but nobody looks at a CRV and complains about its weight and the environmental impact of that weight on air quality nearly the same way.

You don't even have to go to a different class. A Model 3 weighs about as much as a BMW 3 series and both weigh slightly less than the average new car.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#147

Post by StopDisinfo910 » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:52 PM UTC

Saline9515 wrote: post #133

chadd wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm not sure this is true, for instance NYC ranks as the second most disabled-friendly city https://www.amny.com/lifestyle/new-york-city-ranks-2nd-in-a-...

In Paris, 90% of the metro transportation system isn't accessible to wheelchairs and strollers. Buses are overcrowded and slow. Who doesn't enjoy to see someone cough on their newborn while fighting for a space for their stoller ?

Buses are perfectly accessible in Paris. They are crowded but acceptably so for a city of 10 millions. It’s not fair to expect the collectivity to accept the externalities of cars so rich people can avoid some slight discomfort.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#148

Post by Saline9515 » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:52 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #132

Saline9515 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that, among casualties, you create an environment that is hostile for families and disabled people.

Shocker, both disabled people and families are easily identifiable and can be exempt from such measures.

Well, they aren't exempt. Many French greens will tell you anyway that having children is bad for the planet and that you should abstain. And, as our population grows older, the accessibility problem will be larger and larger.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#149

Post by fragmede » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:52 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #20

whimsicalism wrote: post #15

it’s always shocked me how diesel reliant Europe is, smells absolutely terrible coming from the states

Way cheaper than gasoline, that is why.

What's interesting is that the price of electricity in the EU makes EVs not competitive on that basis.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#150

Post by adrian_b » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:52 PM UTC

flomo wrote: post #81

SequoiaHope wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a time in between, where electric streetcars (trains) were a common mode of transport. But those got torn up for cars. That’s a real tragedy in hindsight.

That's the myth. Streetcars were actually torn up because busses were much cheaper, there was no conspiracy. The streetcars were also old and cold and ppl hated them. (I lived in a streetcar part of SF, and loved it, fwiw. But the only reason it's still there is a tunnel.)

Establishing a new bus service in an area where public transportation had not existed must be indeed much cheaper.

However it is impossible for the operational and maintenance costs for a bus service and for the roads on which the buses go to be cheaper than for an electric streetcar, unless some prices are fake.

It is true that I have seen enough cases where electric streetcars have been replaced by buses, but I cannot see other explanation except bribes, because it was extremely visible that the buses were more expensive, both because of the fuel consumption and because of the much more frequent repairs both for the buses and for the roads.