Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace

#211

Post by torginus » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:41 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #34

Black_13 appears to be shadowbanned so I'm reproducing their comment here: black_13 11 minutes ago [dead] | parent | context | unvouch | favorite | on: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for res... The cynicism in these comments is telling, but misses crucial realities about Germany's capabilities and social achievements. Yes, Germany creates bureaucracies. Yes, Dorothee Bär's digital infrastructure record is…

I don't even know who pushes this German exceptionalism propaganda - is it themselves or do they have 'German-weeaboos' who think everything German is better?

> Germany maintains world-class engineering and manufacturing excellence through their Mittelstand network - small companies are not unique to Germany. But you'll be surprised how many German industrial automation companies (a domain I know something about), basically haven't changed their product portfolio in the past 10-15 years. Research institutions aren't unique to Germany. The fact you're banking on the clout of having invented MP3 40 years ago is weakness masquerading as strength.

> Their dual education system creates exceptional technical competence without requiring college degrees. - they do have excellent training for skilled technicians, I do give them that.

> Germans live significantly longer - the 28th longest life expectancy in Europe

> Germany isn't now teetering on becoming a police state. - no comment on this, because I don't want to turn this into political mudslinging, but needless to day, this isn't an uncontroversial take. It'd be more accurate to say Germany isn't becoming a kleptocracy/plutocracy like the US.

Re: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace

#212

Post by xxmarkuski » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:52 AM UTC

I agree that merging the technology division from the ministry of economic affairs (BMWK) to the new research ministry is a good step as both ministries have been large providers of funding. The BMBF funds DFG, as well as the large science organizations in Germany (Fhg, Mpg, ...), the BMWK has funded research which is closer to applications, of course looking to enable economic activity. I'm unsure why the ministry gets a special focus on aerospace, this topic is being worked on by the DLR, funded by BMBF. I'm also not yet sure what to think about splitting education and research. It goes against the Humboldtian Ideal, especially in the universitys both topics are connected. On the other hand, it might enable the ministries to be more focused and do reforms that don't depend on each other to be performed more quickly. The research ministry will go to CSU, the bavarian sister party of CDU. While it may not be very popular amongst many Germans, because CSU is seen as conservative and individual CSU politicians are not famous science policymakers, Bavaria is a successful science hub. Munich is home to international leading institutions (TUM, MPG, FhG). Bavaria is also a hub for aerospace with Aibus and MTU and startups like Isar Aerospace and Rocket Factory Augsburg. Maybe repeating what bavarian policymakers have done regionally to the whole of Germany will be good.

Re: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace

#213

Post by hobofan » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:55 AM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #174

encrypted_bird wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose then you won't get nearly as much medical research, technological research, scientific research. Seriously, you may not realize just how much genuine academic research at colleges, universities, and technical institutes rely on government grants. At least that's how it is in the US. I'm unsure how different, if at all, it is in Germany.

Tip: All highly industrialised, wealthy nations are the same. Central govt provides huge sums for academic research with the hope that it can be commercialised.

In many fields of study, the money that goes into academic research is essentially more of high-level-talent education expense, so that local companies have pools of PhDs to hire from, rather than needing to produce a invention that will be commercialized.

E.g. if you look at PhD graduates only one in a few hundred (even in STEM fields) will end up on a path that commercializes their research, with most of the other ones moving into industry and likely not working on a directly related subject to their thesis. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Re: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace

#214

Post by KurSix » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:55 AM UTC

But the real test will be follow-through. Big promises like "world's first fusion reactor" and wooing global talent sound great, but without a clear budget or streamlined bureaucracy, it risks becoming just another shiny headline

Re: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace

#215

Post by rkachowski » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:56 AM UTC

Dracophoenix wrote: post #175

DataDaoDe wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has tons of potential, but Germany is one of the most risk averse countries on the planet (see Uncertainty Avoidance Cultures)[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_avoidance ]. This makes it amazing at building high quality industrial products, taking innovation done elsewhere and refining and polishing it, slowly over many years - building standards as you say. However, it doesn't help much in the inno…

How does the Germany of today reconcile itself with the iconoclasts of its past from mathematicians, physicists, chemists, explorers, filmmakers, and industrialists who set the stage for modern life during the late 19th and early 20th centuries?

In my experience it generally generally doesn't, and instead revels in the prestige of past successes. Titles and self mythology seem to be more valued than achievement and performance.

It's a sad frustration, as there is so much potential here.

Re: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace

#216

Post by KurSix » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:58 AM UTC

submeta wrote: post #10

Many German companies want „Digitalisierung“, workflow automation, process improvements, they want to use AI, LLMs, but when it comes to implementing all of that, they are drowning in bureaucracy. What Germans can do is create layers of bureaucracy.

To be fair though, once they do get through all those layers, the end result is often incredibly well-structured and precise

Re: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace

#217

Post by rrr_oh_man » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 8:02 AM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #208

bobthepanda wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One very big bet I would say would be the NRLA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRLA Switzerland sits between Germany, Italy, and France, and was getting choked by road traffic, so voters have approved the largest tunnels in the world to get goods around and through Switzerland without using roads.

I trade you anecdata for my anecdata: How about the Fehmarn Belt tunnel? Not big enough?

Paid for and owned by Denmark :)

Re: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace

#218

Post by jll29 » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 8:11 AM UTC

jsemrau wrote: post #170

selfmodruntime wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Applying for a grant is normally difficult. In Germany, it's outright hellish. I hope I will be pleasantly surprised.

Applying for a grant in the European Commission is a labyrinth of different websites each with their own need to register. Grant Specs are largely in PDFs or Word Documents that are attached to the call. And it takes at least 6-9 months from open to decision. I have applied to about 20 grants throughout 2024 and haven't heard anything back from a single one yet.

EC scientific expert here (occasionally judging FP7/8/Horizon 2020/Horizon Europe grants in multiple areas including AI). I also authored some bigger proposals, one rejected (score: 13/15) and one funded.

It is perhaps not a good idea to apply to that many in such a short time frame, unless you have nothing else to do: the individual efforts need to be really excellent to succeed, so focus should be on quality rather than quantity. Why? There is a funding threshold, and you can have 5 proposals that get 13/15 ("good enough to fund"), but you still don't get any of them funded because there enough competing grants with 15/15 score, and after they receive their funding, the pot of money is already empty (the funding is in order of merit).

In my experience, most applications that fail to get the perfect score required are incomplete: To get excellent scores it is vital to FULLY address ANYTHING mentioned in the call. And to squeeze all that into 40 pages is an art. (There are folks that provide consulting support, which I have not used yet, or you could collaborate with someone who has worked on the other side to learn more about what is important.)

While getting grant money remains hard, I was pleasantly suprised about the judging effort and the EC's personnel energy put into the evaluation process and in making it fair; for each call, their is a special rapporteur going around and documenting that everything that should be done gets done the way it should be, and the EC take great pains to find experts that are diverse across multiple dimensions (gender, country, industry/academia, seniority, field of expertise etc.).

edit: typos

Re: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace

#219

Post by rkachowski » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 8:14 AM UTC

janderson215 wrote: post #179

valenterry wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is not the bureaucracy. It absolutely is. Try to open a company in Germany. Then try to do your tax. Then try to close your company. After that, let's talk again about bureaucracy. Oh, and the new government just announced plans that non-employeed people (freelancers, business owners, ...) are now forced to pay into national pension (with few exceptions). And don't get me started on that one. Just as an…

Have you also done these things in the US? I have heard this sentiment that the German system is far and above the more bureaucratic before, but for all I know, Americans could just be relatively complacent in comparison to Germans and our systems function nearly identically. I’d like to hear from someone if they have been through both processes first hand who could answer this question. Americans constantly complain…

I feel that Germany can do better than reach for criticism of America whenever challenged on its own merits.

Re: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for research, technology, aerospace

#220

Post by spit2wind » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 8:23 AM UTC

ernst_klim wrote: post #64

anigbrowl wrote: post #34

Black_13 appears to be shadowbanned so I'm reproducing their comment here: black_13 11 minutes ago [dead] | parent | context | unvouch | favorite | on: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for res... The cynicism in these comments is telling, but misses crucial realities about Germany's capabilities and social achievements. Yes, Germany creates bureaucracies. Yes, Dorothee Bär's digital infrastructure record is…

> comprehensive public transportation infrastructure, universal healthcare without administrative bloat, and urban planning that prioritizes livability over speculation. This can't be further from the truth. This is probably written by an American, and US is a very car-centric, but German infrastructure is a shitshow. Also healthcare is absolutely stiffled by bureaucracy. I have a friend who is a cardiologist. He say…

This reads as FUD. I'm an American who's lived in Germany recently. On every measure, my experience was been better than the US.

I can walk to the grocery. Or ride a bike. Or take the bus. Or take the train into the city. There are options in transport and in the stores. Never, ever had those options in the States.

Yes, I've had some doctors I didn't care for. So I found another one and they've been great. Same thing happens in the States. You must advocate for yourself. Nothing different.

The big difference is the complete lack of fear going in because you know you won't have to pay an arm and a leg. And yes, it's not "free". It comes out of your paycheck. 110% better. Never had to wait an excessive time, even for specialists. No more than in the States; you schedule it out. Yet, I can go to the emergency room when there's a concern and be greeted with compassion and receive care. So much better, it's hard to convey and hard for Americans to believe. I didn't until I lived there.

As for "digitalization", yeah, it'd be nice to submit some forms online rather than through paper. But it's not a big deal. Howwver, it's super nice to talk to human beings on the phone! Haven't run into too many "your call is very important to us. Please listen as our menu may have changed" and then have to deal with a 1kbsp mega compressed audio line. Also, while I've had bad experiences with clerks, many more have been very patient and gracious. Again, contrast that to the DMV. Not much difference.

Doctors in the US also deal with tons of paper work...has your friend also worked in the States?