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Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

bbc.com

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Re: Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

#11

Post by refulgentis »

billforsternz wrote: post #10
snickerbockers wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take your pick: * Difficult to navigate in a narrow underwater structure without crashing * Signal penetration, or lack thereof, in an iron hull at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean * Extremely niche technology that would have few practical uses in other contexts since most of the seabed does not suffer from the same complexities as a shipwreck * Can't see for shit underwater in general * We already know whats down th…

One of those rare occasions where I can't possibly just salute an excellent comment with a mere upvote. Superbly balanced effort, each bullet point equally devastating and perfectly expressed.

You have inspired me to do a quick Fisk-ing, in homage to rationality, remaining tethered to reality, and preferring some research before free-associating, if only to avoid information pollution.

(note: we can quickly discover footage from inside the Titanic that obviates all these points. Here, we endeavor to cover this from an angle of how you could detect the arguments presented were weak, without that knowledge)

* Difficult to navigate in a narrow underwater structure without crashing

Passenger ship? Too narrow for a drone?

* Signal penetration, or lack thereof, in an iron hull at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean

Wireless signals aren't used for companion submersibles.

* Extremely niche technology that would have few practical uses in other contexts since most of the seabed does not suffer from the same complexities as a shipwreck

The seabed does not have any tight spaces?

* Can't see for shit underwater in general

We are commenting on an article that reconstructed a massive ship as a 3D model via photographs underwater

* We already know whats down there and why it's down there, therefore unlikely to lead to significant new information

We are commenting on an article that reconstructed the ship from the exterior despite this same factor applying.

* This could actually be considered desecrating a mass grave under maritime law

Not even wrong. Just throwing stuff out there.

Re: Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

#12

Post by billforsternz »

refulgentis wrote: post #11
billforsternz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of those rare occasions where I can't possibly just salute an excellent comment with a mere upvote. Superbly balanced effort, each bullet point equally devastating and perfectly expressed.

You have inspired me to do a quick Fisk-ing, in homage to rationality, remaining tethered to reality, and preferring some research before free-associating, if only to avoid information pollution. (note: we can quickly discover footage from inside the Titanic that obviates all these points. Here, we endeavor to cover this from an angle of how you could detect the arguments presented were weak, without that knowledge)…

Bravo. I am speechless at this point.

Re: Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

#13

Post by bluGill »

snickerbockers wrote: post #9
shadowgovt wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One does wonder precisely how many decades (or centuries) have to pass before "desecrating a mass grave" becomes "archaeology" (... "he ruminates while thinking about that fascinating Pompeii exhibit that toured through town one year...").

oh man, idk if you've ever been to the metropolitan museum of art in NYC, but they have dozens, maybe even hundreds , of dead bodies that were removed from their burial sites without consulting any next-of-kin (not that you'd be able to figure out who that is) on display in glass cases. But apparently its alright since nobody's left to argue on behalf of whatever pagan religion or cult they participated in.

There is a museum near me with an Egyptian mummy on display and notes that the Egyptian government now wants it back even though it was legally bought from Egypt 100+ years ago. Last I heard it wasn't going back, but I suspect just a matter of time.

Re: Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

#14

Post by Lammy »

snickerbockers wrote: post #3
WalterBright wrote: post #2

I'm curious why there aren't drone cameras that can explore the interior.

Take your pick: * Difficult to navigate in a narrow underwater structure without crashing * Signal penetration, or lack thereof, in an iron hull at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean * Extremely niche technology that would have few practical uses in other contexts since most of the seabed does not suffer from the same complexities as a shipwreck * Can't see for shit underwater in general * We already know whats down th…

> * Extremely niche technology that would have few practical uses in other contexts since most of the seabed does not suffer from the same complexities as a shipwreck

This is why the wreck of the Titanic got found in the first place though https://www.nationalgeographic.com/premium/article/titanic-w... (https://archive.is/jibqF)

Re: Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

#15

Post by mschuster91 »

bluGill wrote: post #13
snickerbockers wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh man, idk if you've ever been to the metropolitan museum of art in NYC, but they have dozens, maybe even hundreds , of dead bodies that were removed from their burial sites without consulting any next-of-kin (not that you'd be able to figure out who that is) on display in glass cases. But apparently its alright since nobody's left to argue on behalf of whatever pagan religion or cult they participated in.

There is a museum near me with an Egyptian mummy on display and notes that the Egyptian government now wants it back even though it was legally bought from Egypt 100+ years ago. Last I heard it wasn't going back, but I suspect just a matter of time.

> even though it was legally bought from Egypt 100+ years ago

One might ask - particularly in a colonial history case - if that "legal purchase" was made under fair conditions and not by exerting undue pressure, as it often happened.

Re: Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

#16

Post by Lammy »

shadowgovt wrote: post #6
snickerbockers wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take your pick: * Difficult to navigate in a narrow underwater structure without crashing * Signal penetration, or lack thereof, in an iron hull at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean * Extremely niche technology that would have few practical uses in other contexts since most of the seabed does not suffer from the same complexities as a shipwreck * Can't see for shit underwater in general * We already know whats down th…

One does wonder precisely how many decades (or centuries) have to pass before "desecrating a mass grave" becomes "archaeology" (... "he ruminates while thinking about that fascinating Pompeii exhibit that toured through town one year...").

It depends on the profit motive of who might want to use a morality argument to maintain their exclusivity lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Exhibitions#RMS_Titani....

Re: Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

#17

Post by bluGill »

shadowgovt wrote: post #4
WalterBright wrote: post #2

I'm curious why there aren't drone cameras that can explore the interior.

Undersea drones are a remarkably (and fascinatingly!) complex field. Ignoring all the mechanical challenges (airtight, watertight machine that can operate under crushing pressures and still has a way to separate delicate, saltwater-sensitive electronics and actuators from external-facing motive devices), the communications are also a challenge: radio does awful under water (VLF can go 100 feet, but now you're trying…

> exploring an environment with unknown shapes, dangerous sharp edges,

We know the original blueprints. We can program that into a robot, along with existing known differences. Then the robot needs to just detect anything that isn't like expected and photograph it and return. After a few rounds of that you would get most of the interesting areas explored.

Currents are handled just by comparing expected return signals to what you really see.

OF course worth it is questionable.

The above fails in the general case only because generally in navigation we also have safety considerations. Your self driving car cannot run over a child no matter what. However there is much less to worry about in the Titanic. (don't confuse that with this is easy, only that if you don't worry about safety it is much easier)

Re: Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

#18

Post by ahmeneeroe-v2 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #15
bluGill wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a museum near me with an Egyptian mummy on display and notes that the Egyptian government now wants it back even though it was legally bought from Egypt 100+ years ago. Last I heard it wasn't going back, but I suspect just a matter of time.

> even though it was legally bought from Egypt 100+ years ago One might ask - particularly in a colonial history case - if that "legal purchase" was made under fair conditions and not by exerting undue pressure, as it often happened.

Cultivating unfair conditions and exerting pressure is just good negotiation.

The modern Egyptian government doesn't actually want mummies back, they just want to get paid again. They are going to use various means at their disposal to get paid once more. Which is "fair" in the All's fair in love and war sense.

Edit: Egypt just wants to pivot a subscription model: https://tutankhamunexpo.com

Re: Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

#19

Post by mschuster91 »

ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote: post #18
mschuster91 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even though it was legally bought from Egypt 100+ years ago One might ask - particularly in a colonial history case - if that "legal purchase" was made under fair conditions and not by exerting undue pressure, as it often happened.

Cultivating unfair conditions and exerting pressure is just good negotiation. The modern Egyptian government doesn't actually want mummies back, they just want to get paid again. They are going to use various means at their disposal to get paid once more. Which is "fair" in the All's fair in love and war sense. Edit: Egypt just wants to pivot a subscription model: https://tutankhamunexpo.com

> Cultivating unfair conditions and exerting pressure is just good negotiation.

I heavily disagree. Bullying may work in a short term but in the mid to long term it can have disastrous consequences - we're seeing this play out right now with the US government and all its major allies looking for a way out and divesting from the US.

Decades worth of "soft power" building effort and hundreds of thousands of lives lost in various wars (WW2 alone >400k!), for nothing, all gone in the space of a few months.

Re: Titanic digital scan reveals new details of ship's final hours

#20

Post by throwup238 »

shadowgovt wrote: post #6
snickerbockers wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take your pick: * Difficult to navigate in a narrow underwater structure without crashing * Signal penetration, or lack thereof, in an iron hull at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean * Extremely niche technology that would have few practical uses in other contexts since most of the seabed does not suffer from the same complexities as a shipwreck * Can't see for shit underwater in general * We already know whats down th…

One does wonder precisely how many decades (or centuries) have to pass before "desecrating a mass grave" becomes "archaeology" (... "he ruminates while thinking about that fascinating Pompeii exhibit that toured through town one year...").

It's not usually time based. Some countries have laws like NAGPRA in the US that protect the graves of specific groups regardless of age but otherwise it's a very fuzzy line to draw. The two extremes are:

- If the polity that the person belonged to still exists, then it's a very sensitive issue - like US civil war graves. Likewise if there is a clear cultural continuity - for example France's first republic to the modern era. Both of which are themselves fuzzy criteria but largely fall into the desecration camp (although there are exceptions, not all cultures view it as taboo when done for scientific/historical purposes).

- If neither the polity nor the culture - often delineated by writing system or state apparatus or other semi-arbitrary line - still exist then the grave is pretty much fair game ethically speaking (legally it depends on the jurisdiction).

That fuzziness in the middle is very problematic but modern archaeologists have a whole process for reaching out to governments and getting consent from any descendant communities if applicable, and then coming up with an ethical plan to rebury/preserve the remains afterwards. IME the majority of such communities are very cooperative because it helps them answer questions about their past.

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