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How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

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Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#481

Post by CRConrad »

fsckboy wrote: post #152
sandbach wrote: post #23

Robert Bringhurst¹ prefers the en dash in the context of setting off phrases: "The em dash is the nineteenth-century standard, still prescribed in many editorial style books, but the em dash is too long for use with the best text faces. Like the oversized space between sentences, it belongs to the padded and corseted aesthetic of Victorian typography. "Used as a phrase marker – thus – the en dash is set with a normal…

"Used as a phrase marker – thus – the en dash is set with a normal word space either side." "Used as a phrase marker—thus—the em dash is set without normal word spaces." > the em dash is too long for use above, the em-dash without spaces is smaller, at least in this typeface I've taken to using dash offsets—just as an aside—in many places were I formerly used parentheses; I find it "less interrupts" the flow of the s…

Nope. Without the spaces, the dash doesn't set anything aside, it glues together. And with them, the m is of course longer than the n.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#482

Post by CRConrad »

knallfrosch wrote: post #440
rsch wrote: post #134

Today in “typesetting before we had typewriters”: … At least we have dedicated O/0, and l/1 keys now. But we still see a lot of "straight" quotes instead of “those smart quotes Microsoft Word likes to generate”. And dashes. Did you know there is a dedicated ellipsis character? This is often set with slightly more space between dots than ..., and it by definition never wraps across a line between those dots. You still…

I hate smart quotes because it's super weird to use the «French» and „German“ quotation marks.

What's so weird about it? It's the appropriate way to do it when writing in those languages.

And really easy to do on an Android phone, I've found: Switch the input to French or German, and the on-screen keyboard offers the appropriate quote marks for that language in the same place as usual.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#483

Post by CRConrad »

handoflixue wrote: post #235
crazygringo wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're just not used to it. Quick, tell me how wide this range is, just as an order of magnitude: 285368737954–285368783645 Would be a lot easier if I only included the range at the end which had actually changed, wouldn't it? That's why it's clearer. Now obviously that was an extreme example, but it's also easier to see at a glance that 1,387–9 is just three pages, as opposed to 1,387–1,389.

If you format your numbers properly, you get "285,368,737,954–285,368,783,645" That's a change of about 50K, which isn't really that hard to notice. "285368737954-83645" is... well I have to assume somewhere in the 10-100K range? Hold on a second while I line up the digits again... uh... let me rewrite that to "37,954 - 83,645", okay now I can read it. No, that wasn't any easier. I kept getting lost tracking where in…

Actually, if you format your numbers properly, you get "285 368 737 954–285 368 783 645". Or "285.368.737.954–285.368.783.645".

Or, sure, sometimes you get "285,368,737,954–285,368,783,645". But it's not like that's some kind of default. Except if you suffer from defaultism --- typically prefixed by "American".

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#484

Post by CRConrad »

rednafi wrote: post #20

I like em dashes and use “Option Shift -” to summon them on macOS. However, LLMs tend to overuse them and compose absurdly long sentences. While proofreading a draft, I often instruct an LLM to “keep the original tone intact and don’t create overly complex sentences by fusing together simple ones.” That usually gets the job done. Writers adores their em dashes. While they can sometimes clarify a concept by adding mor…

> LLMs tend to overuse [em dashes] and compose absurdly long sentences.

So do I.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#485

Post by CRConrad »

iLemming wrote: post #473

Simple reminder for those who don't know this: the easiest way to insert em-dash in Vim-supported editor (Evil-mode in Emacs) is to use digraphs feature. In insert mode you'd press Control+k, then type a digraph sequence. For em-dash is `C-k -M` — you literally type: "Control+K minus capital M". For vanilla Emacs (without evil-mode), you can always do — "C-x 8 RET EM DASH" or "C-x 8 RET 2014". That's what "M-x descri…

I've been thinking about trying Emacs --- but if you have to type half a freaking novel just to get a dash...

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#486

Post by iLemming »

CRConrad wrote: post #485
iLemming wrote: post #473

Simple reminder for those who don't know this: the easiest way to insert em-dash in Vim-supported editor (Evil-mode in Emacs) is to use digraphs feature. In insert mode you'd press Control+k, then type a digraph sequence. For em-dash is `C-k -M` — you literally type: "Control+K minus capital M". For vanilla Emacs (without evil-mode), you can always do — "C-x 8 RET EM DASH" or "C-x 8 RET 2014". That's what "M-x descri…

I've been thinking about trying Emacs --- but if you have to type half a freaking novel just to get a dash...

Oh, so you think Emacs in 2025 doesn't know what a "completion" is? Just because it started over forty years ago doesn't mean it's stuck in the past, you don't need to "type half a freaking" nothing.

You know, I can too, play this game - in VSCode, the method of inserting an em-dash is different for all three platforms; IntelliJ, and Sublime don't even have the built-in feature like that - you gotta use 'snippets' or something. In contrast, Emacs and Vim knew how to do it probably before you even learned how to type, and the method has been consistent since then - you'd just learn how to do it once, and that knowledge is guaranteed to stay relevant even decades later.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#487

Post by ovalanche »

snozolli wrote: post #453
dragonwriter wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its funny that people think that conventions for typewritten text built around the limitations of typewriters define what is “proper” in environments where typewriters and their limitations are not involved.

What does this have to do with what I wrote? I said nothing of the sort. In fact, I explicitly pointed out that HTML and WYSIWYG word processors address it automatically.

That’s fair!

My comment applies to a few pedantics I know personally, who stubbornly double space after periods when typing in regular situations.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#488

Post by CRConrad »

iLemming wrote: post #486
CRConrad wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about trying Emacs --- but if you have to type half a freaking novel just to get a dash...

Oh, so you think Emacs in 2025 doesn't know what a "completion" is? Just because it started over forty years ago doesn't mean it's stuck in the past, you don't need to "type half a freaking" nothing. You know, I can too, play this game - in VSCode, the method of inserting an em-dash is different for all three platforms; IntelliJ, and Sublime don't even have the built-in feature like that - you gotta use 'snippets' or…

1) The comment I replied to said you had to type a long freaking incantation. I know nothing of this new place you're moving the goalposts to.

That's actually my only real point; the following are bonus:

2) WTF does VSCode have to do with anything?!? Did I write "VSCode is so much better!" anywhere? Funny, can't recall that I did.

3) I took ten-finger-typing in högstadiet, ~"junior high" in Americanese, so about 1977-78. Cool IBM Selectrics, some of them with a built-in Tippex ribbon IIRC. (Didn't really take; I still use ~4-6 fingers.) Before that, I taught myself to type (with at least two fingers, maybe up to four) on a manual typewriter I got for Christmas in... 1975, 6? According to Wikipedia, Vi was first released with BSD in February 1978; Emacs was used internally at MIT from 1976. So pretty much a dead heat.

Now you can go on playing your games, kiddo.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#489

Post by iLemming »

CRConrad wrote: post #488
iLemming wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, so you think Emacs in 2025 doesn't know what a "completion" is? Just because it started over forty years ago doesn't mean it's stuck in the past, you don't need to "type half a freaking" nothing. You know, I can too, play this game - in VSCode, the method of inserting an em-dash is different for all three platforms; IntelliJ, and Sublime don't even have the built-in feature like that - you gotta use 'snippets' or…

1) The comment I replied to said you had to type a long freaking incantation. I know nothing of this new place you're moving the goalposts to. That's actually my only real point; the following are bonus: 2) WTF does VSCode have to do with anything?!? Did I write "VSCode is so much better!" anywhere? Funny, can't recall that I did. 3) I took ten-finger-typing in högstadiet, ~"junior high" in Americanese, so about 1977…

Oooh, you sound pissed. Or maybe I'm reading it like that in my head. I don't know why you feel like I was staring at your ego the wrong way — never was my intention to hurt your feelings.

I can tell you though why my comment sounds defensive; it's because I care about the tool and the community invested into it. Despite having virtually no better alternative in its category, it is still not a very popular tool (for various reasons), and the user base is relatively small, the number of active contributors is even smaller.

Disingenuous remarks similar to yours do a disservice to the community of its users, maintainers and interested newcomers.

For what it's worth, the command I described, the one that gave you the impression that you have to type "an incantation" - `C-x 8 RET` bound to (insert-char), you invoke it, and start typing "dash", or "em d" and it finds you the thing. It's also great for inserting emojis and arrows of all sorts, stuff like that. I often debug code inserting log statements with butterflies or dog symbols - easy to quickly spot them. You can type a number and then call it, it will insert that many of the selected character.

Anyway, whatever your goal was with that thought - you imagined it all wrong. Feel free to blame me for not describing it properly, don't blame the tool.

Re: How to Use Em Dashes (–), En Dashes (–), and Hyphens (-)

#490

Post by CRConrad »

iLemming wrote: post #489
CRConrad wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) The comment I replied to said you had to type a long freaking incantation. I know nothing of this new place you're moving the goalposts to. That's actually my only real point; the following are bonus: 2) WTF does VSCode have to do with anything?!? Did I write "VSCode is so much better!" anywhere? Funny, can't recall that I did. 3) I took ten-finger-typing in högstadiet, ~"junior high" in Americanese, so about 1977…

Oooh, you sound pissed. Or maybe I'm reading it like that in my head. I don't know why you feel like I was staring at your ego the wrong way — never was my intention to hurt your feelings. I can tell you though why my comment sounds defensive; it's because I care about the tool and the community invested into it. Despite having virtually no better alternative in its category, it is still not a very popular tool (for…

> Oooh, you sound pissed.

Big fucking wonder, after the tone of your previous comment???

> I can tell you though why my comment sounds defensive; it's because I care about the tool and the community invested into it.

You need to find better ways to show that care.

> Despite having virtually no better alternative in its category, it is still not a very popular tool

Then maybe there actually are lots of better alternatives, by the potential users' own judgement. If it were actually percieved as good, it would be more popular. Seems the evangelism for it is just failing. You don't think you're exhibiting a prime example of how and why that is...?

> Disingenuous remarks similar to yours

What the fucking fuck was "disingenuous" about it??? Someone said (paraphrasing), "Oh, inserting M-dashes in Emacs is easy, you just type Ctrl-Meta-Alt Youdelihoo blah-blah...", and I responded "That's too fucking long to type." Then you came and moved the goalposts with your, uh, "continuations", was it? I feel it's not me who's being disingenuous here.

> do a disservice to the community of its users, maintainers and interested newcomers.

I started my comment by pointing out that I was a potential newcomer. Wanna guess what shit like this does to my level of interest?

And not only mine: Everyone else who sees examples of "Emacs evangelism" like this, including everyone who stumbles across this exact thread.

> Feel free to blame me for not describing it properly,

Will do.

> don't blame the tool.

If you're a typical example of the user / evangelist base -- and I have no reason to believe otherwise -- I'll blame the tool, too: For what its community turns its users into. (ETA: I'm enough of an asshole already, I don't need Emacs to make it worse.)

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