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Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

strongtowns.org

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Re: Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

#51

Post by macNchz »

johannes1234321 wrote: post #37
crazygringo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great attitude if you can afford it. But try telling it to the single low-income parent trying to raise their kids who just needs to make ends meet at the end of the month. Unless you have a massive wealth redistribution plan in place, with massive, extremely progressive local taxes so everyone can afford the massively higher prices you'll be forcing on everyone?

An angle on that: Imagine getting rid of the big cost factor, the car. And having a walkable neighborhood with school, stores, medical care, workplaces in workable (or short bicycle ride) away. Of course this won't magically happen when a single DG is rejected.

Yeah I see a lot of stuff in America where decades of single-minded optimization towards cheap & convenient has had knock-on effects that ultimately don't serve people very well, or wind up creating second order costs—like hollowing out downtowns for cheap stuff at Walmart being a big part of making car ownership a prerequisite for daily living, or the cheap and convenient food options that have precipitated a nationwide public health crisis, or the way we've constructed our built environment in a way that has seemingly left people unhappy and isolated.

Re: Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

#52

Post by [deleted] »

renewiltord wrote: post #27
parpfish wrote: post #7

> "we're not against change, we're not against business, if you want to open a nice little coffee shop and bookstore, but Dollar General just isn't quite a good fit." this line stood out to me because it mirrored a lot of debate in my small rural community when a dollar general proposed moving in (spoiler alert: DG won). the debates around DG had a way of exposing some previously-unseen class and economic divisions i…

Yes, people do unfairly call me a NIMBY but ultimately I’m just trying to make sure that the thing that is being built in my backyard is community-oriented, socially-responsible, ethical, environmentally conscious, and built by local artisans using local materials. And if we can’t do it right, then maybe we shouldn’t do it.

[deleted]

Re: Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

#53

Post by kstrauser »

rexpop wrote: post #26
kstrauser wrote: post #15

My family lived in a smallish town for a while, and I've gotta say that chain stores were a godsend. We did business with local shops whenever we could, but the stock variety was inherently much smaller than we found at Target (or even Dollar General). Much as we would have preferred to be able to pay our neighbor $1.50 for an item, it was awfully nice to find nicer items for $1 at the chain place. Don't get me start…

> I definitely want to support my neighbors, but I don't want to buy Local Brand Ketchup. I want Heinz, darnit. For the love of God, why??

Because you never tried this Local Brand Ketchup, which was ketchup in the same way that a Yugo was a car. It met the legal definition but no one was holding it up as the platonic ideal of its kind.

Whatever brand of ketchup you prefer, it’s better than this one was, unless you worked for that grocer and convinced yourself you liked it, in which case bless your heart.

Re: Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

#54

Post by Lendal »

jollyllama wrote: post #46

Is there anything in DG that's healthy? The garbage these stores are feeding people is an externality that is contributing to negative health outcomes. To allow it is to condemn the rural underclass to eating toxic waste, it's equivalent to allowing them to live in lean to slums and shouldn't be allowed.

If they only sold healthy things it wouldn't change anything. The jobs are low wage. Local businesses employed more workers and paid more than DG or Walmart do, so they went out of business. Workers had no choice but to work at DG or WM for the lower wage. Regional wages cratered. Eventually the community economically just can't afford to exist anymore and also becomes dependent on government assistance. This story has been replayed across the entire country but it happens in big cities too.

Re: Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

#55

Post by sksxihve »

renewiltord wrote: post #43
crazygringo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great attitude if you can afford it. But try telling it to the single low-income parent trying to raise their kids who just needs to make ends meet at the end of the month. Unless you have a massive wealth redistribution plan in place, with massive, extremely progressive local taxes so everyone can afford the massively higher prices you'll be forcing on everyone?

I'd tell them about the importance of union rights. We're all sacrificing a little but the important thing is to protect unions.

People never consider the chapter of local artisans anymore

Re: Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

#56

Post by kjkjadksj »

potato3732842 wrote: post #21
maxsilver wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who worked at a corporate-private-equity-owned Dollar store (but not DG, specifically), I highly doubt that's true. They "manage stock on demand" in that they count SKUs sold and replenish as needed / as they have availability, sure. And they probably do a inventory / count day once in a while, to account for loss(shrink). But that's about it. They might occasionally get to pick from a few custom options f…

I'm familiar with chain auto parts. They all try and cater to local needs. A store in Texas is gonna have more varieties of A/C stuff on the shelf (we're talking retail parts here, not vehicle specific stuff you buy at the counter). Stores in the rust belt are gonna have more exhaust stuff, etc. I'm only familiar with Napa from a management level and they're kind of the odd one out but as far as the other chains go w…

I’ve seen the manager at a home depot make this call in real time. They had a case of umbrellas up on some racking. I heard him say “lets put those umbrellas down now its going to rain this week.” Shifting the store floor to meet demand. When our baseball team won the world series they also changed all the 5 gal buckets to team color and branding no HD logo at all. I wish I grabbed 5 at the time…

Re: Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

#57

Post by q_andrew »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #47
q_andrew wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dollar General is a mega corporation that can operate on an entirely different level than local stores. They pay their workers less and the profits go out of state. On a store-by-store basis though, Dollar general is a fragile establishment, management will not hesitate to abandon the location if they are spending too much money propping up the store. And the overhead for these stores is higher than it needs to be -…

> They pay their workers less and the profits go out of state. Almost every local retail business I know of pays less than larger businesses, simply due to not meeting the 50 employee minimum that subjects businesses to a host of other labor laws such as ACA and FMLA.

You're right - what I should have said is that a local store owner is getting the direct profits of their labor. I admit that one of the short-term benefits of a big box store coming to town is that their lowest paid employees get more protections. This comes at the cost of being held at arms length from the actual power structure of the company and makes the dollar general's business practices more unsustainable.

Re: Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

#58

Post by parpfish »

pj_mukh wrote: post #23
parpfish wrote: post #7

> "we're not against change, we're not against business, if you want to open a nice little coffee shop and bookstore, but Dollar General just isn't quite a good fit." this line stood out to me because it mirrored a lot of debate in my small rural community when a dollar general proposed moving in (spoiler alert: DG won). the debates around DG had a way of exposing some previously-unseen class and economic divisions i…

“it wasn't a NIMBY vs YIMBY thing -- both wanted development” This distinction isnt the most important point here but this is very much NIMBY-ism. Blocking a development because the community has different opinions about what should be built, particularly opinions they don’t want to fund via their tax dollars is basically textbook NIMBY-ism.

in this particular case you're probably right, especially for the people opposed to DG on 'local character' grounds.

but it's not like YIMBYs literally say "yes" to every development. there's also DG opposition on the basis of creating sprawl on the outskirts of town, and that's the type of opposition you'd probably hear from the strongtowns-loving YIMBY types. they are strongly opposed to the types of developments that increase sprawl because of long-term infrastructure costs, reduced walkability, etc.

Re: Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

#59

Post by catlover76 »

johannes1234321 wrote: post #37
crazygringo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great attitude if you can afford it. But try telling it to the single low-income parent trying to raise their kids who just needs to make ends meet at the end of the month. Unless you have a massive wealth redistribution plan in place, with massive, extremely progressive local taxes so everyone can afford the massively higher prices you'll be forcing on everyone?

An angle on that: Imagine getting rid of the big cost factor, the car. And having a walkable neighborhood with school, stores, medical care, workplaces in workable (or short bicycle ride) away. Of course this won't magically happen when a single DG is rejected.

[dead]

Re: Small Town America vs. Big Box Stores

#60

Post by yesfitz »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #48
stemlord wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seemed pretty clear to me: they not only don't pay nearly as much in taxes as local businesses but are subsidized by local taxpayers

Why would they not pay as much taxes as local businesses? I have never seen a tax rate that differentiates between local and non local businesses.

I found the answer to your question by opening the article and using Ctrl+F to find the word "tax". Here are the excerpts:

>"In an episode of the Strong Towns podcast, [Stacey Mitchell, co-director of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance] explains how companies like Walmart or Target convince local officials that they’re bringing jobs and financial benefits to the area often in exchange for tax breaks and subsidies to cover the cost of land or construction. Unfortunately, many local governments are too quick to take the bait."

>"ILSR also discovered that large corporations benefit from tax loopholes, enabling them to avoid paying income taxes in about half the states they operate in. Meanwhile, small businesses don’t have that luxury—they pay taxes on 100% of their earnings."

>"This uneven playing field places local businesses at a disadvantage, as they are required to bear a higher tax burden than their corporate competitors. A similar dynamic plays out on the federal level, where corporations may operate in part through shell companies based in tax havens."

Those were all taken from the last 4 paragraphs of the section under the heading "The Big Box Swindle" (the first section after the introduction).

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