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Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

economist.com

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Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#711

Post by immibis »

unstatusthequo wrote: post #538
SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

I don't understand the willingness of the masses to willingly give governments complete access to all of their transaction data. At least in the U.S. bank transactions are feebly masked by institutions. I have no doubt the government gets bank transaction data, but with Pix, it's just making it even easier to monitor what you're doing. Is it that the transparency makes it feel good? No middleman selling it or giving…

"Is the government spying on me?" tends to be a concern that is secondary to things like "Am I getting paid?" and "Can I buy groceries?"

Technologists repeatedly get this wrong. The best money system is the one that lets me buy groceries in exchange for working, not the one that's cryptographically unbreakable. Unless I'm running an illegal internet-based drug empire, in which case, the ones that aren't cryptographically unbreakable are disqualified, since I'd need the government to not be able to trace the money flow in my illegal drug empire. But even real illegal drug empires that are not internet-based mostly use government-issued currency, with measures taken to hinder tracing!

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#712

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

Vox_Leone wrote: post #667
hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correcting the blatant misinformation about the topic: - PIX project started in 2016, public launch in 2020 - It was not "launched" by any President; the Brazilian Central Bank is an independent authority, with it own mandate, not a branch of the executive power - PIX was co-developed with institutions of the financial sector - It's a protocol that participants must implement, not an app. The specification is even on…

Your arguments are pretty lame. Pix was indeed launched in the Bolsonaro administration, but it is incidental. You are flailing around the bulk of my argument, which is about the source code openness, without actually attacking it. It might as well be illegal today. Art. 16 da Lei nº 14.063, de 23/09/2021: estabelece que os sistemas de informação e de comunicação desenvolvidos exclusivamente pela administração públic…

You should read up on "autarquia federal". The Central Bank is not part of the government.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#713

Post by kattagarian »

djoldman wrote: post #156

There's a lot to discuss here. Focusing on one thing however: > But unlike India, where UPI is run by an industry body, Pix is managed entirely by the BCB.... the BCB alone runs Pix’s infrastructure and controls the encrypted database that stores all transactions.... This concentration of power in a central bank is unusual, and has led to criticism. “Now we live in a democracy, but imagine if this existed under an au…

Encryption

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#714

Post by DanielHB »

moefh wrote: post #246
DanielHB wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazil has massive amounts of fraud so credit cards are very inconvenient, card cloning and websites leaking credit card numbers is a huge problem. Banks are super aggressive about blocking cards if they see suspicious transactions. Tap and pay is popular in Brazil as well, but only for physical transactions. For online small purchases PIX is definitely the best option. PIX (and similar systems like Sweden's Swish/Ba…

> once you send the money it is gone with no contest possible That's not true; PIX requires your bank to provide a way (called "MED"[1]) for you to request a reversal up to 80 (!) days after a transaction. It can only be used in case of fraud, and it may take up to 7 days for the bank to analyze the situation and deny/allow your request. If it's allowed, you'll get the money back in up to 4 days. If the bank denies t…

Oh I didn't know that, the Swedish system doesn't have anything like that as far as I am aware. But credit card fraud reimbursements are relatively straightforward. The PIX one seems more complicated, but the chance of being defrauded on PIX transactions is much smaller as well.

as in you can't get your card cloned and then a bunch of transactions show up.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#715

Post by jowea »

nonethewiser wrote: post #706
jowea wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true but the next step is a Brazilian bank account.

OK so it's firmly in the "not reasonable" territory for tourists. Just pay cash or credit card. Tourists aren't going to wait a while for a Brazilian tax id then use a Brazilian bank account before their trip. Just to select Pix as your payment method instead of card you already have in the Uber app. This isnt a take down of Pix. Sounds excellent and should be replicated in other countries. Lets just not pretend its…

There seems to be a new solution for tourists in Brazil to use Pix but with their digital wallet: https://www.infomoney.com.br/minhas-financas/pix-para-gringo...

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#716

Post by ta12653421 »

mqus wrote: post #422
runeks wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I believe that is the goal: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/integration/retail/instant_pa... But I think adoption is slow because everyone in the EU already has credit cards and fees are not paid by consumers.

Isn't SEPA instant kinda mandatory by the end of this year? (it mustn't cost more than regular transfers)

correct, in Q4

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#717

Post by ta12653421 »

wuming2 wrote: post #191
Maken wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be more akin to Wero, the German-French system to replace both debit cards and online payment platforms.

I don’t speak French but BdF presents a side by side comparison: https://www.banque-france.fr/fr/a-votre-service/particuliers... As far as I understand SEPA ICT was developed by the Euro Payment Council. An industry body. ECB TIPS, albeit maintaining compatibility with the scheme, provides an harmonised service across the entire Eurosystem and beyond.

> entire Eurosystem and beyond

mmh, not really - banks who are connected to the Euro-Zone can use it, but it has not a "beyond-EU"-ambition.

TIPS is just one of the two clearing-mechanisms, there is also RT1 (which is operated by a private entity and launchend long before TIPS came into place, TIPS is operated by each countries national bank in coop with ECB), since some time, there is interoperability, so you can transact from TIPS-connected entities to RT1-connected entities; RT1 is much more expensive than TIPS

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#718

Post by jowea »

idiotsecant wrote: post #687
lompad wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you own it, you can spend it, regardless of what anyone thinks. Which is also its primary drawback. Transactions are non-reversable, which inherently makes it unsafe for wide-scale use. Consumer protection is so important, clawing back payments is an incredibly important part of that. Wrong copy-paste and all my money could just be gone forever? Yeah no, that's never going to fly in countries where consumer prote…

Transactions are non-reversible in the same way cash is. Are you equally worried about me paying rent in cash? Buying a hamburger with cash? It's not a big deal, and mostly a UX issue as argent and others have shown. I like the idea of my money being my money and not just mine as long as my government isn't annoyed with me. I don't much care if other people are afraid of it. That's a great thing about crypto. You are…

And with a digital system like Pix at least you can definitively prove you did pay, unlike with cash, unless you take extra steps when paying.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#719

Post by pembrook »

lillecarl wrote: post #663
adanchristian wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Digital payments does present a uniquely frictionless route for tyrannical governments to assert power should they ever decide to weaponize it…unlike paper money which is harder to control. This is true, and there's already a proposed law to ban paper money in Brazil.

Digital payments also present a uniquely frictionless route for a functioning democratic government to tax goods and build a better society

Yes, all governments are honest, non-corrupt, and never abuse power.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#720

Post by lillecarl »

pembrook wrote: post #719
lillecarl wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Digital payments also present a uniquely frictionless route for a functioning democratic government to tax goods and build a better society

Yes, all governments are honest, non-corrupt, and never abuse power.

No, but abusing a payment system makes little sense. If people don't trust it they won't use it and then it serves no purpose. Incentives between government and people can have overlap
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