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Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

paranoia.dubfire.net

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Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#151

Post by AkThhhpppt »

philwelch wrote: post #150
AkThhhpppt wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a terrorist hate group is the elected government of the Palestinian Authority, we expect you to deal with them as the elected government. Not to like it, but to do it. Martin McGuinness, former member of the IRA army council, is Deputy Minister of Northern Ireland - a country he ran bombing campaigns to destroy (I'm not exaggerating: the explicit aim of the 30-year PIRA campaign was a reunited Ireland). Nelson M…

How do you propose Israel deal with a group whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel? Perhaps McGuinness is reformed (you did say former member of the IRA army council). Does he continue to call for the destruction of Great Britain? If not, you can negotiate with that. Israel has long negotiated with Palestinian factions that endorse a two-state solution, such as Fatah. Mandela accomplished the destruction o…

I said he was one of the commanders of a guerilla army committed to the destruction of a country he now is Deputy Prime Minister of. If he is no longer a member of the Army Council (he denies ever being so, with as much believability as Clinton's denial that he did not inhale pot) it is because the political role he was playing became more important, and military activity was jeopardizing that work. Sinn Fein still seek a united Ireland, but are trying to accomplish it through political means.

This is the power of dialogue. You talk, you talk, you keep talking. You deal with the less extreme popular factions (analogy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDLP), but the key word in that sentence is popular: an agreement with an organization with no backing in the community is an agreement with no-one. You do NOT commit to something and then completely disregard it, because then your word becomes worthless, and no-one believes anything you say ever again.

I do not know the solution. No-one does. But attempting to push the Palestinians into the sea is not it.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#152

Post by AkThhhpppt »

AkThhhpppt wrote: post #151
philwelch wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you propose Israel deal with a group whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel? Perhaps McGuinness is reformed (you did say former member of the IRA army council). Does he continue to call for the destruction of Great Britain? If not, you can negotiate with that. Israel has long negotiated with Palestinian factions that endorse a two-state solution, such as Fatah. Mandela accomplished the destruction o…

I said he was one of the commanders of a guerilla army committed to the destruction of a country he now is Deputy Prime Minister of. If he is no longer a member of the Army Council (he denies ever being so, with as much believability as Clinton's denial that he did not inhale pot) it is because the political role he was playing became more important, and military activity was jeopardizing that work. Sinn Fein still s…

Note: I am NOT claiming this is easy. It's incredibly hard. But nothing else works.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#153

Post by philwelch »

AkThhhpppt wrote: post #151
philwelch wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you propose Israel deal with a group whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel? Perhaps McGuinness is reformed (you did say former member of the IRA army council). Does he continue to call for the destruction of Great Britain? If not, you can negotiate with that. Israel has long negotiated with Palestinian factions that endorse a two-state solution, such as Fatah. Mandela accomplished the destruction o…

I said he was one of the commanders of a guerilla army committed to the destruction of a country he now is Deputy Prime Minister of. If he is no longer a member of the Army Council (he denies ever being so, with as much believability as Clinton's denial that he did not inhale pot) it is because the political role he was playing became more important, and military activity was jeopardizing that work. Sinn Fein still s…

He wanted to "destroy" Northern Ireland by unifying the counties inside of it with the Republic of Ireland, instead of keeping them unified with Great Britain. This is not even an unreasonable stance for a North Irish elected official, is it? It takes a lot of equivocation to equate that with what Hamas wants to do.

We can agree that Israel has made a lot of mistakes. That doesn't legitimate groups like Hamas and that doesn't provide any basis for dialogue with Hamas, either. Meanwhile, the anger and hatred towards Israel would be there with or without the mistakes. It was there before the mistakes and it will be there long afterwards.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#154

Post by fusiongyro »

mistercow wrote: post #139
fusiongyro wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's counterproductive to bathe ourselves in outrage over mistakes that cannot be rectified when there are problems today that could be solved, or at least improved on, by calm diplomatic negotiation, if either side could distance themselves from their hurt feelings long enough to cool off a little and be realistic. Getting everyone riled up over the injustice of it all pushes this process into the future and benefit…

>It's counterproductive to bathe ourselves in outrage over mistakes that cannot be rectified when there are problems today that could be solved, or at least improved on, by calm diplomatic negotiation, if either side could distance themselves from their hurt feelings long enough to cool off a little and be realistic. Getting everyone riled up over the injustice of it all pushes this process into the future and benefi…

This conversation is futile so long as you're inflating, misunderstanding and overreacting to what I'm saying.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#155

Post by mistercow »

fusiongyro wrote: post #154
mistercow wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's counterproductive to bathe ourselves in outrage over mistakes that cannot be rectified when there are problems today that could be solved, or at least improved on, by calm diplomatic negotiation, if either side could distance themselves from their hurt feelings long enough to cool off a little and be realistic. Getting everyone riled up over the injustice of it all pushes this process into the future and benefi…

This conversation is futile so long as you're inflating, misunderstanding and overreacting to what I'm saying.

I'm not the one who conflated "putting Israel there was a mistake" with "Israel should be pushed into the sea".

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#156

Post by fusiongyro »

mistercow wrote: post #155
fusiongyro wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This conversation is futile so long as you're inflating, misunderstanding and overreacting to what I'm saying.

I'm not the one who conflated "putting Israel there was a mistake" with "Israel should be pushed into the sea".

Those were unconnected threads. Did you forget that you said this?

> the problems with [dissolving Israel] do not significantly intersect with the problems of genocide.

I asked you several responses ago to explain how that could be. You dodged that question by being combative and insulting. I'm not willing to lose more of my calm debating a troll such as yourself. Discussion over.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#157

Post by hluska »

Johngibb wrote: post #128
hluska wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was young, I was a very shy kid with a stutter. Needless to say, school wasn't always the most pleasant place. By the time I hit high school, I was straight up angry. I was so sick of being beat up and called 'fag' that I resolved to be different. So, I became a punk and started going to as many punk shows as possible. All of a sudden, I certainly was not one of the cool kids, but I was part of a group that wa…

I understand, and this helps me resolve a contradiction of understanding I've had for a while. I always thought of the sardonic saying "I want to be different, just like everyone else." I get it though - the idea is to still identify with a group, just not the mainstream (default?) group. But the group still has common values by which it can be identified. As another commenter pointed out - I also hadn't realized tha…

I haven't fully formed this thought (I apologize), but you made a great comment and I wanted to reply! (Thanks by the way, for your comment)

I'm going to go out on a limb and argue that, in high school, my group of non-conformists likely conformed more than the group of conformists we ranted against so much. Examples may help:

- I got into Joy Division in Grade 9. Suddenly, all my friends listened to Joy Division (and we even gave up on mohawks because Ian Curtis inspired us so much).

- Or, the beginning of grade 9, we were all obsessed with Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. But then, my friend Drew bought Shadowrun books. All of a sudden, we were all obsessed with Shadowrun (and cyberpunk in general). We were so obsessed that AD&D immediately went from the ranks of 'amazing system' to 'a stupid game for kids'.

- Bad Religion was playing in Edmonton. Suddenly, Bad Religion was our collective favourite band and we planned a crazy road trip to go see them play.

I don't totally understand the mechanism at play, but your comment brought all of this to mind. I suspect that since we were so socially outcast (because we all tried so hard not to conform), we felt that we couldn't lose what friends we had. Consequently, nobody rocked the boat about anything until University.

Oddly, we all drifted apart while we were in University. In retrospect, it looks like we only stayed together because we conformed so perfectly...

Thanks again for your comment - I love that I had these thoughts and I owe you for them!

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#158

Post by hluska »

peterwwillis wrote: post #74
Johngibb wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off topic, but I find it puzzling that there's basically a handbook for a subculture trying to be different. It seems like a logical impossibility for a subculture to actually be unique and different, when there's essentially a dress code (short hair, levis, dr martens). I'm not trying to make any value judgements on the subculture, just trying to understand. Maybe the point is that the subculture / group itself is u…

Skinhead culture is about embracing things you do like, not rejecting the things you don't. They're not trying to be different. They just like the music and the clothes and the attitude, as well as the extended family nature of the people who identify as they do. I'm pretty sure everyone who associates themselves with any label is doing the same thing.

I wanted to thank you for your comments in defense of skinheads yesterday, but time got away from me (and I have a touch of ADHD). Thanks for jumping up in defense of a group I have a whole lot of respect for!

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#159

Post by [deleted] »

philwelch wrote: post #149
ta12121 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Romani have been historically oppressed, and were the victims of genocide along with Jews in the Holocaust. Where should their sovereign state be located? I hope I'm not being a jerk, but there were lots of Jews in the first half of the 20th century that were opposed to Zionism. I assume you wouldn't accuse them all of being antisemitic.

Obviously not. But it's not up to Gentiles to decide the best strategy for the Jews to defend themselves from us, either. Likewise, what the Romani do to protect their nation is up to them.

[deleted]

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#160

Post by mistercow »

fusiongyro wrote: post #156
mistercow wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the one who conflated "putting Israel there was a mistake" with "Israel should be pushed into the sea".

Those were unconnected threads. Did you forget that you said this? > the problems with [dissolving Israel] do not significantly intersect with the problems of genocide. I asked you several responses ago to explain how that could be. You dodged that question by being combative and insulting. I'm not willing to lose more of my calm debating a troll such as yourself. Discussion over.

The discussion was technically over when you Godwin'd several posts back.
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