Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant • Hacker News Board

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#541

Post by xeromal » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 2:12 AM UTC

irjustin wrote: post #494

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that, the BIS isnt even needed for global real time payments. A company like Wise (formerly transferwise) or any similar entity can just hold accounts in each country and if the local settlement is real time they can also do real time global settlement by just updating their db and sending the money real time in the receiving location.

This is how they all work including western union. It's not a secret but it's not really talked about either. No one pays FX fees on each transfer. Single large rebalancing transfers allows them to actually move money at optimal times and rates with bulk discounts. Then they can currency hedge and get larger spreads on the actual fx rate.

Kind of a tangent but I have some friends that are kurdish and that's how they transfer money to and fro the US and skirting whatever limits/regulations exist. They just give money to a money family in kurdistan and the money family here in the US hands it to them out of a restaurant or whatever. I've been fascinated with it since I knew it existed. It's all the same stuff with various coats of lipstick.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#542

Post by vitorgrs » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 2:14 AM UTC

alephnerd wrote: post #508

vitorgrs wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. As soon as June, Brazilian pix will support "Automatic Pix". Which means, basically, Pix will support subscriptions. So let's say, you authorize Netflix with pix, and then every month they will charge you with Pix automatically. I find very likely Netflix or Amazon will be one of the first companies to support this in June now. This was made initially to replace old school automatic debit for phone/electricity/e…

Intruiging (in a great way). Do you have any recommendations of any Brazilian sources (Portuguese em Ingles) about the Brazilian and MERCOSUR FinTech and Public Tech industry? I'd love to dig even deeper, but my background is more NAM and Indo-Pac driven. I passed on NuBank eons ago and don't want to make the same mistake again. > Brazil, installments with credit cards are also super common... Basically when you put…

Not sure if there's an english website about it, but in Portuguese quality content you can find without paywall I would say is NeoFeed https://neofeed.com.br/

Brazil Journal too, but it usually focus more on market as a whole. https://braziljournal.com/

But most of the news are usually covered on Infomoney, Valor Economico, with the together with daily market coverage.

NeoFeed and Brazil Journal focus more on "high-quality", less content.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#543

Post by xeromal » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 2:22 AM UTC

lucasoshiro wrote: post #254

earnesti wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on the technicals? Is it a phone app? Does it work through QR codes or NFC? Is there a Pix "card"?

Pix is basically a commercial name for two services: - SPI: responsible for the payments - DICT: responsible for mapping keys to accounts The API documentation of those services are available, but only banks can use them. When a person wants to send money to another, there's an option in the bank app for sending through Pix. Then you have many options to define to whom you'll send that money: - typing the bank accoun…

This sounds really cool. Is there a verification step where you confirm that the right number or identifier was entered for the first payment to someone? That's always one of my biggest concerns and I don't want to enter a number twice as the verification.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#544

Post by DadBase » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 2:23 AM UTC

In '98 I rigged something like Pix using IRC bots and a cron job on a Solaris box. Worked beautifully until daylight saving time, then everybody got paid twice.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#545

Post by JusticeJuice » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 2:26 AM UTC

Etheryte wrote: post #42

Asraelite wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> crypto is all proprietary What?

I think a steelmanned version of their comment is that crypto apps are proprietary, which I think is mostly true. There are open source apps, but most of the big ones are all proprietary.

Sorry, I should've been way more clear. But this is what I was getting at. If the average person wants to buy or trade in crypto, they don't reach for an open source solution, they'll use a proprietary service. I know that's built ontop of a lot of great open source tech, but the final 'app' people interact with isn't open. The fact that pix doesn't have an open source app just strikes me as a weird reason not to use it.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#546

Post by leonidasv » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 2:26 AM UTC

nirui wrote: post #206

I'm thinking, maybe controversially, centralized national payment service like this should be government-run based on my experience with Alipay which is a digital payment service in China. Due to it's commercial origin, Alipay is filled with unwanted ads and traps. Almost every time I made a payment with it, a pop up prompts me to enlist their Ant Financial LOAN service either now, or being prompted for the same ques…

Well, Pix is not free from those too... Besides being operated by the Central Bank, you still have to use your commercial bank account to send/receive money and, even though the Central Bank do require some minimum UX implementation standards, banks can still show messages offering lending services before you finish the transaction. So you also get banks already offer some kind of instant micro-loan even for small Pix transactions, just as you described.

At least most aren't as intrusive as Alipay, but they do exist.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#547

Post by xeromal » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 2:27 AM UTC

hammock wrote: post #517

xzjis wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only controversial in the USA I guess. Here in France we know for a fact that government-run services are better than privately owned ones.

Says the national from a country that’s had at least 12 different government orders in its time, more than any other G20. You really like government, you just can’t figure out what it ought to be or how to keep it.

I'm generally a pro-capitalist but replacing your goverment 12x seems like a good thing? They're refactoring for what they want. Better than "This hundred year document that couldn't conceive of the internet or machine guns is giving us guidance on those things with a ouiji board"

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#548

Post by rat87 » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 2:30 AM UTC

dakial1 wrote: post #393

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Now, try to use Pix outside of Brazil - it's not even used in other Mercosur countries, what's the chance of having that adopted in other countries... And, that's problem #1. How much do you trust your government with your money? A system like Pix don't stand a chance to get a worldwide adoption - maybe people are naive but governments won't unify to adopt a common system cont…

Pix proposition is very valuable for governments, as it is the best way of controlling transactions, inside the country and cross-border. To you second point, I think the pix penetration/popularity proves that the majority of the people trust the government for that. There are 2 key reasons for its success: It was mandatory for Banks to adhere to the system and there are no fees for using it. Once multiple countries…

Cash is arguably more secure and likely less traceable and easier to use if you don't trust governments. I don't see much use case for crypto other then illegal activities (although possibly not always immoral)

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#549

Post by JusticeJuice » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 2:32 AM UTC

NiloCK wrote: post #73

Etheryte wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a steelmanned version of their comment is that crypto apps are proprietary, which I think is mostly true. There are open source apps, but most of the big ones are all proprietary.

I still don't really get this. Do you mean that frent-ends have proprietary code? Contracts on-chain can be slightly inscrutable in their bytecode format, but it's pretty uncommon for smart contracts to not be published with source code and a verifiable build. Example, picked randomly from a transaction in a recent block: https://etherscan.io/address/0x388c818ca8b9251b393131c08a736...

> Do you mean that front-ends have proprietary code?

Yes, sorry for not being clear, but this is what I meant. When the average person uses crypto, they're not using an open source app to buy/sell it. They'll be doing it through a propriety service, with a non-open source front-end. That service will build on top of a lot of great open source tech yes, but the final layer is very likely a private company.

I know there are open source options, but my understanding is the overwhelming majority of human trades won't be using them. My point is, refusing to use pix because there's not an open source mobile app is odd to me.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#550

Post by leonidasv » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 2:34 AM UTC

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #363

SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Now, try to use Pix outside of Brazil - it's not even used in other Mercosur countries, what's the chance of having that adopted in other countries... And, that's problem #1. How much do you trust your government with your money? A system like Pix don't stand a chance to get a worldwide adoption - maybe people are naive but governments won't unify to adopt a common system cont…

> How much do you trust your government with your money?

When you use Pix, your money is not in custody of the government. The money goes to/comes from a standard commercial bank, just like a wire transfer. What the government (Central Bank) does is just the infrastructure for moving money between bank accounts.

The point about not being a global standard is valid, though. Although there are initiatives in progress to connect similar instant payment systems from different countries as other users have noted.