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A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

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Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#81
post #78
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we mostly agree but somehow you seem to still be missing my point. A different tack, then. What do you mean by "vat of chemicals called a strawberry?"

To bring this back to where it started: > It reminds me of people who won't eat certain foods because it contains "too many chemicals". Maybe I misread this, but I took this to refer to the current food industry and how it processes/produces foods. The market is filled with products labeled "strawberry" that are not really strawberries or even close to the makeup of strawberries. > What do you mean by "vat of chemica…

I was replying specifically to

> There’s a big difference between a real strawberry and a vat of chemicals called strawberries.

> The market is filled with products labeled "strawberry" that are not really strawberries

What is a "real" strawberry? Is a generically modified strawberry "real" to you? What about a strawberry grown in a greenhouse?

> even close to the makeup of strawberries.

If you're talking about flavored food, sure. Maybe that's what they were meaning. That would make sense. That's not what I'd consider a "vat of chemicals called a strawberry," as the a would seem (to me) to indicate that it is a replica of a strawberry.

> the ship of Theseus analogy seems misapplied, since we're not talking about a situation where the food choices we have are between the real thing and some molecularly perfect replica.

Sure, it's a hypothetical that we can't yet technologically replicate in its entirely. The GMO/hothouse question is entirely practical, though. And the point of these kinds of questions isn't that the're immediately practical, it's to figure out an interesting question by pushing things to the limits.

> fact that everything is made up of the same stuff of the universe and more to do with questioning whether or not the human-made processed option is safe in the long run.

That still isn't the point, though. Sure "chemicals" is a bogeyman for many (see also dihydrogen monoxide). But why is "dihydrogen monoxide" bad but water good?

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#82
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except we know certain chemicals are harmful, and we have no idea about the long term effects of many others. We also have a history of using materials we don’t understand and only stopping after it kills or harms enough people.

You mean like caffeine and fried animal fat? :D

My point wasn't that there are no naturally occurring harms, but that foods which on their own are otherwise considered safe may take on a different safety profile when altered depending on the nature of that alteration.

e.g. we're beginning to realize that eating highly processed meats on a regular basis can cause GI problems/cancer in the long run while eating some of the components individually and prepared differently does not.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#83
post #81
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To bring this back to where it started: > It reminds me of people who won't eat certain foods because it contains "too many chemicals". Maybe I misread this, but I took this to refer to the current food industry and how it processes/produces foods. The market is filled with products labeled "strawberry" that are not really strawberries or even close to the makeup of strawberries. > What do you mean by "vat of chemica…

I was replying specifically to > There’s a big difference between a real strawberry and a vat of chemicals called strawberries. > The market is filled with products labeled "strawberry" that are not really strawberries What is a "real" strawberry? Is a generically modified strawberry "real" to you? What about a strawberry grown in a greenhouse? > even close to the makeup of strawberries. If you're talking about flavo…

> What is a "real" strawberry? Is a generically modified strawberry "real" to you? What about a strawberry grown in a greenhouse?

This seems like a shift of the goalposts. Setting that aside, I have no inherent issue with GMO foods, but that ultimately depends on the nature of the modification. There could certainly be cases where something is modified to a degree that it no longer resembles the original plants and it'd be fair to question whether the new creation carries the same benefits/harms as the original. The use of pesticides and fertilizers may also change the outcome.

To your point, at the end it's all just particles. But that doesn't remove the need to evaluate the properties of the resulting concoction.

> Sure, it's a hypothetical that we can't yet technologically replicate in its entirely.

And that was really the point.

> That still isn't the point, though. Sure "chemicals" is a bogeyman for many (see also dihydrogen monoxide). But why is "dihydrogen monoxide" bad but water good?

You're describing a scenario in which people are afraid of big words.

I'm describing a scenario in which people are concerned about the effects of specific substances added to the dihydrogen monoxide they drink.

To demonstrate the inverse, I know people who only drink sugared soda, which is clearly going to impact their bodies differently than drinking plain water. This is not speculation or hypothetical. The health conscious person who prefers pure drinking water over Mountain Dew is not afraid of big words, they're concerned about the sugar, caffeine, and other additives that make the liquid less healthy.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#84
post #62

Over here forests were planted to drain the swamps and provide hunting grounds 300 years ago. Today, self accredited "eco-experts" double and triple dipping in EU "green" subsidies want to cut down all the forests and burn them off in pellet form in Dutch incinerators to selectively and arbitrarily restore the "original" ecosystem.

> Over here Where is that? You don't say.

Belgium

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#85
post #24
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "actively choosing" mean? An ant might choose to move the bugs they milk. Do they count?

I’d define this as: we consciously understand the potential and real consequences of our actions. Ants operate on instinct and are not capable of extrapolating higher order consequences like we are.

Thinking of individual ants is really the wrong analogy; ant colonies are more like the organism. Your hands work on instinct too (just look at newborn babies; they can do very little, but they can grab things).

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#86
post #28

If you’re interested in this, the garden below is very worth visiting. https://ntbg.org/gardens/limahuli It’s built into sections - plants from before any humans landed in Hawaii, plants from early settlers, plants from the plantation period, etc. My favorite learning was canoe plants (maybe a different name) - plants that early settlers would bring with them when exploring new islands in their canoe that were critic…

Try the first chapter of James Michener's "Hawaii". It tells a tale of huge catamarans laden with plants, pigs, and other starters for new outposts of a daring seafaring culture.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#87
post #34
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reminds me of people who won't eat certain foods because it contains "too many chemicals".

There’s a big difference between a real strawberry and a vat of chemicals called strawberries.

A real strawberry contains many times more chemicals. The chemistry of a strawberry is like alien technology compared to our primitive science.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#88
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d define this as: we consciously understand the potential and real consequences of our actions. Ants operate on instinct and are not capable of extrapolating higher order consequences like we are.

Thinking of individual ants is really the wrong analogy; ant colonies are more like the organism. Your hands work on instinct too (just look at newborn babies; they can do very little, but they can grab things).

I don't think my response changes for a colony.

I'm not saying ants/ant colonies don't exhibit intelligent/sophisticated behavior, but we don't have evidence to suggest they understand the higher order consequences associated with where they build their colonies.

For similar reasons, we don't consider it murder when an apex predator kills a human, but we do when it's another human.

> Your hands work on instinct too

The operation of many (if not most) of the systems in our bodies is instinctual and a mystery to us from a 1st person perspective, e.g. we don't actively beat our hearts, digest our food, etc. But continuing the last point, if you used your hands to cause harm to another human, "my hands work on instinct" isn't a reasonable defense. We still have agency and the ability to choose how we use our hands, and we're (generally) aware of the consequences of the actions we facilitate with our hands, even if we aren't directly aware of how our hands function.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#89
post #80
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And this doesn’t have to be at odds with our space ambitions. I never said, it is. Did I? A side quest is an optional thing you do while you complete the main quest. Mentioning it as a side quest serves as a link to the supposed Carlin quote. I always considered the main quest of life is to promote more life. Multi-planetary life is life more resistant to medium to large cosmical calamities.

I was primarily responding to this: > The real quest is getting multi planetar. Which when viewed as the "real" quest, has potentially problematic downstream effects. My point was that there are many people who see who see the world as something to escape and live lives prioritizing things that harm our long term ability to survive here in the pursuit of that escape. I appreciate the clarification that this is not wh…

> I appreciate the clarification that this is not what you meant. It wasn't clear that the "real quest" had any connection to the side quest since they seem unrelated.

Thanks, I'm pretty sure I know what I meant. I meant a gaming analogy (main quest/ side quest) not the Christianity metaphor. Just because you perceive as such doesn't mean I meant it as that.

> But I strongly believe that stabilizing the home base is a higher priority in the near term i.e. at a time when the planet is in a precarious place

Sure, just make sure you're not waiting for Godot (I meant the play, but pun is intended).

Earth is never a stable place. Ecosystems are a constant rise and collapse of dietary chains, continents aren't standing still, and cataclysms are a dime a dozen. Organisms causing mass extinctions are also nothing new under the Sun. Albeit, we do hold a speed run record I believe.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#90
Very interesting read. Piques the question of what’s indigenous. In Australia the dingo was introduced by humans - but it’s been so long that there’s a blurred line on whether they’re a pest or not.

The sudden change described - too sudden for the ecosystem to absorb, so the old gets replaced instead - has echoes of disruption in tech.

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