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Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

economist.com

281–290 of 789 posts

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is presented as problematic, but I don’t think it’s a negative thing. You wouldn’t want a foreign company with billions of dollars in their war chest in charge of your countries payment system.

Isn't that what any other payment system and most of the banks around the world are - a foreign company with billions of dollars in charge of payment system in a country. VISA, Mastercard, HSBC, UnionPay, ICBC, Santander... Or is this all Brazilian technology? The difference is that Meta is privacy data hoarder, not that it's a foreign company. And it's not "in charge of countries payment system", because that's pret…

That's why China created UnionPay, so it wouldn't be held hostage to a large foreign corp (Visa, MC) for CC payments.

But most countries didn't have that capability. Kudos to Brazil for putting something together for domestic digital payments so as not to rely on a foreign company.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#282

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

> I've even had homeless people ask me for Pix instead of change on multiple occasions.

Sounds like WeChat Pay. It's been years now that beggars in China only carry QR codes.

> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance.

They solve a different problem or have the potential to: predictable/unbiased money issuance and on/off ramp for payment platforms.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#283
post #15

WhatsApp is omnipresent for communication in Brazil, and WhatsApp Pay was ready before Pix, but the government blocked the launch to launch Pix first.[1] I rarely see this mentioned. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/technology/brazil-suspends-w...

Good!

The president of the Brazilian Central Bank is accountable. Zuckaberg isn't.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#284
post #57
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much As a citizen of a still kind-of-functioning democracy, I'd happily make the trade if that means Apple, Google, Visa or Mastercard don't have the information anymore.

I don't think you've thought that through - fascists and communists both have more control over the institutions of democracy than they do over those companies. The banking companies generally don't want to be involved in anything ideological except moneymaking.

Banking companies are more than happy to fold like a cardboard box if either government threatens their money-making.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you pay with Google Wallet or Apple Pay it's a corporation what you bought, when and where. And since Google knows your location and has access to your mail, social media and everything on your phone, they can connect more dots.

Google is not going to put me in a concentration camp, enslave me, or send me to die in a trench on the front lines. (If you're reading this, please note this comment was written in 2025)

Google isn't, but there might be a startup that will in the next batch.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#286
post #206

I'm thinking, maybe controversially, centralized national payment service like this should be government-run based on my experience with Alipay which is a digital payment service in China. Due to it's commercial origin, Alipay is filled with unwanted ads and traps. Almost every time I made a payment with it, a pop up prompts me to enlist their Ant Financial LOAN service either now, or being prompted for the same ques…

payment services should absolutely have a public option, as should many other basic eservices like email, mychart, etc. the issue is that our government in particular is incompetent, has legal difficulty hiring for merit, and has public sector unions (which is effectively empowering people to negotiate against the collective democratic will of the people).

i’ve worked on internet projects with the feds before, basically the current iteration of the federal government does not really seem capable of doing these things because of how the rank-and-file is structured.

i think it would also be important to make sure that control over payment isn’t abused. i recall when donations to wikileaks were effectively blocked by public/private coordination. presumably that would be even easier if it just required public action.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#287

Do not put your money into Pix because Brazil's government has become extremely authoritarian and anti democratic, including jailing political opponents.

As far as I'm aware, Pix is just a way to transfer money. You do "put money" into Pix.

Regarding the rest, I'm not following Brazilian politics that closely, but if politicians try to stop a democratic transition of power, then any functional democracy has to deal with them. I don't know how you can do that without doing things like jailing those who were involved. We can't do whatever we want and then call it political prosecution.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#288
post #63

Theortically it would now be possible to implement a similar service in the US using FedNow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow Of course in practice it is a chicken-egg situation. Few people will use it over established credit based systems unless there are other incentives. Credit card companies, including PayPal & Co, are essentially rent seeking: They are middle men that technologically aren't needed anymore fo…

Credit cards don't just offer chargeback capabilities. They offer pro-active fraud protection. They alert you for all kinds of threats, data breaches, double-charges, etc. They will sometimes lock your card and not let a payment go through, if it is suspicious, unless you perform extra confirmation via email/text/push. They offer virtual cards that you can activate or deactivate with any given vendor, to improve your privacy, security, and control.

Having your card stolen, either physically or virtually, becomes much less scary.

When used responsibly, with rewards programs, the numerous benefits over cash make sense even in the unusual case where cash payments get a discount.

Zelle and debit cards have similar kinds of protections that make it safer than cash, and there's an audit trail. Though, it is more dangerous than credit cards.

And, obviously, credit cards let you borrow money which provides flexibility to allow payments even if your paycheck hasn't yet arrived. And occasionally, going into debt intentionally can be wise, when making an investment.

Government programs could offer these kinds of features, but betting on long-term competence, customer service, and innovation in the public sector is a losing proposition.

Having both public and private options works as an intermediate approach.

But, particularly for lending, the process of determining credit-worthiness is not a government specialty, and making it subject to the political process seems like a losing proposition for taxpayers.

Payments are a more valid area for government involvement, but even then, I'm not sure what it could offer that Zelle doesn't.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#289
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it much more worrying than having Visa being able to do that? Yes, of course it is. How could anybody think otherwise? What is the worst thing Visa can do and what is the worst thing Visa has done? What is the worst thing the government can do and what is the worst thing the government has done?

Visa has to respect whatever laws apply in the country they operate in. So if the police want Visa info on whoever, provided that a legal framework cover this issue, Visa has to give it. It makes 0 difference if the payment system is government-operated or not. In any democratic country, the police would need the approval of a judge whether the service is public or a private company. And in dictatorship, the governme…

I can think of at least one difference. If the government wants to lie about credit card transactions, Visa has to go along with it.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny but I always had assumed all countries had their own state-owned weather services, until I found out there was no such thing in Germany.

That's not true. See https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutscher_Wetterdienst

Oh well! Good to know! Next time I'll use DWD instead of using those weird apps. Thanks!
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