Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant • Hacker News Board

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#191

Post by wuming2 » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 1:33 PM UTC

Maken wrote: post #177

wuming2 wrote: post #58

Hopefully ECB’s TARGET Instant Payment Settlement (TIPS) service will enable the same widespread adoption. With a price of 0.002 euro per transaction it’s guaranteed to become the most convenient solution.

This seems to be more akin to Wero, the German-French system to replace both debit cards and online payment platforms.

I don’t speak French but BdF presents a side by side comparison: https://www.banque-france.fr/fr/a-votre-service/particuliers...

As far as I understand SEPA ICT was developed by the Euro Payment Council. An industry body. ECB TIPS, albeit maintaining compatibility with the scheme, provides an harmonised service across the entire Eurosystem and beyond.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#192

Post by internet_points » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 1:34 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #105

dguest wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst is a market facade for a government service. Examples in the US: - Weather apps: various governments do the (very expensive) computing and provide the data for free. Private companies insert adds, or charge you. I use Yr, which is run by Norway and has no adds or fees. They are just sourcing public data [1]. - Taxes: the government does all the bookkeeping and enforcement, tax prep industry copies and paste…

Another variant is the "playing at shops" privatization, such as seen in the UK railway system. Lots of different, fragmented entities, none of which naturally corresponds to a train service as a whole, obfuscating where the money goes (it's the train landlords or ROSCOs).

They did the same to Norwegian rail. In fact, one of the main companies that got involved in the enshittification of Norwegain rail was British Go-Ahead Group.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#193

Post by parpfish » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 1:36 PM UTC

cubefox wrote: post #63

Theortically it would now be possible to implement a similar service in the US using FedNow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow Of course in practice it is a chicken-egg situation. Few people will use it over established credit based systems unless there are other incentives. Credit card companies, including PayPal & Co, are essentially rent seeking: They are middle men that technologically aren't needed anymore fo…

Doesn’t the US already have direct bank transfers with Zelle?

I don’t know why cashapp and Venmo took off but Zelle stayed unknown

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#194

Post by auadix » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 1:37 PM UTC

weinzierl wrote: post #103

SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

Is there any way to use Pix as a tourist without Brazilian tax number or permanent residence. Technically a pre-paid option should be possible, but I could not find anything about something in that vein.

You don't need a permanent residence, but to use PIX you have to get an ID called CPF. This is your IRS number, as you said, tax number. It's easy to get but it takes time, you can have one as national from different country.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#195

Post by WillAdams » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 1:37 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #47

londons_explore wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly every non-western country has it's own e-cash type system. Everything from m-pesa in Kenya to Gcash in the Philippines to PromptPay in Thailand to Alipay in China to SGQR in Singapore to MPay in Oman.... The pattern is that these systems are nearly all fully centralised, require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned, and not cross border.

And quite a lot of Western ones like Vipps. And see this long list: https://truelayer.com/reports/alternative-payments/european-... > require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned Unfortunately systems that don't have those requirements are going to be money laundering channels. I wish it wasn't such a big concern but it's unavoidable.

That's okay so long as criminals can still use public lotteries for that so that the government gets its cut.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#196

Post by 01HNNWZ0MV43FF » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 1:39 PM UTC

yetihehe wrote: post #18

SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

> I receive a push notification from my Brazilian bank before Wise finishes running the animation of confirmation of withdrawal. It's like magic. After I had to add a special animation for one email system so that user was sure that "the core functionality of encrypting" was indeed working (it took milliseconds in reality), your experience doesn't surprise me that much. But, in my "IoT" system we have a mix of device…

Even if it's free, doesn't it have to put the ticket cookie in some database?

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#197

Post by lvass » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 1:39 PM UTC

We have a saying in Brazil that absolutely no part of our government works, except for our IRS. Pix is such a huge win for them. Brazil has a huge informal/illegal economy that employs more people than those who are lawfully employed (40M vs 39M). We have an effective tax plus legal compliance rate of around 60%, that really stifles down anyone attempting to open a legit business in an already harsh environment. Pix has not yet been used to crack down on the informal sector, but with sufficient motivation and some data analysis, it absolutely can be.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#198

Post by DanielHB » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 1:41 PM UTC

xinayder wrote: post #119

DanielHB wrote: post #55

Sweden has had a similar system for several years before PIX in Brazil. It is also integrated with the digital ID system (BankID). The main difference is that the Swedish system is ran through a private organization managed by all the major banks (and the central bank) in conjunction. So the central bank doesn't have direct access to the transaction data technically. While the Brazilian system is only interacted dire…

This is the difference in Brazil. Because it's ran by the Central Bank, there are some fraud protections. For example, if you receive money by mistake, you have the option to return a transfer to the original sender. And if you don't do that almost immediately, the sender can actually sue you and get the bank to revert the transaction (once proven you've deliberately chosen to not return the money). There are also ot…

It is still not the same as credit cards, credit card fraud protection doesn't require any sort of legal process.

Also these kind of limits can also be put on credit (and debit) cards.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#199

Post by forinti » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 1:43 PM UTC

Galatians4_16 wrote: post #125

Despite a global move towards a cashless society, 54% of Brazilians now opt for cash withdrawals.¹ 2024 has seen a surprising reversal, as cash usage makes an unexpected comeback , defying predictions that the world was moving toward a cashless society. With rising cybersecurity threats, concerns over financial privacy, and economic instability, consumers and businesses are increasingly turning back to physical curre…

I keep a few bills in my wallet, but I hardly ever carry it around.

Everybody accepts cards and Pix. Even beggars on the street use pix.

If I revert back to using public transport I will probably have a use for cash, but that's the only situation I can think of where it would make sense.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#200

Post by erikerikson » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 1:45 PM UTC

rafaquintanilha wrote: post #123

roenxi wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you've thought that through - fascists and communists both have more control over the institutions of democracy than they do over those companies. The banking companies generally don't want to be involved in anything ideological except moneymaking.

Correct. Moreover, when you are trapped by the government, few things work better than raising international awareness. Even if the companies ultimately comply, that is typically done loud and clear, and eventually snowball until it's unsustainable.

So there's this thing called a gag order.