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A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

bbc.com

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Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#41

Post by noja »

Lutger wrote: post #40
mactavish88 wrote: post #5

It's always odd to me how people tend to think that human-created ecosystems are "freakish" or "unnatural". Humans evolved in the same environment as the ecosystems we're modifying. The buildings and cars and roads we make are made of materials we find on earth, similar to how birds build nests or ants make anthills. (Whether all the things we build are good and healthy for us and our environment is another story.) M…

There are several competing, and sometimes complementary perspectives on what 'nature' means. Some include humans and their activity within it, others do not. One thing you can ask yourself: if human activity and the impact it has on its environment is included in what you call 'natural', then what even does remain of the word 'unnatural'? What do people refer to, when they use that word? If you don't have any sensib…

I think if you are short-terming your existence by destroying everything around you, that could qualify as unnatural.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#42

Post by haswell »

Ygg2 wrote: post #17
eloisius wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it George Carlin that joked something like “maybe the earth conjured up humans in order to put all this plastic in its crust for some purpose we don’t understand”?

Maybe that's just the sidequest. The real quest is getting multi planetar.

What if the real quest is to collectively find ways to coexist without destroying the only planet we know to be fully capable of supporting human life richly?

And this doesn’t have to be at odds with our space ambitions.

But framed the way you framed this, it somewhat reminds me of the religious perspective that this world is just prep for what is to come. As a consequence, they see the harms we’re doing as inconsequential.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#43

Post by haswell »

trelane wrote: post #36
bix6 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a big difference between a real strawberry and a vat of chemicals called strawberries.

Seems akin to the Ship of Theseus. Is an entirely artificial--but indistinguishable down to the atomic level--strawberry not a strawberry?

When we have the ability to replicate strawberries at the atomic level, then I’d grant you this point.

We presently do not, and the market is filled with products calling themselves one thing while in reality being in essence a vat full of chemicals.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#44

Post by denom »

Tropical forest ecosystems with introduced species thrive in a way others (e.g. boreal and oak savannas) do not.

Not all ecosystems are resilient enough to handle invasive species, and can be destroyed with the introduction of a single aggressive species.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#45

Post by trelane »

haswell wrote: post #43
trelane wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems akin to the Ship of Theseus. Is an entirely artificial--but indistinguishable down to the atomic level--strawberry not a strawberry?

When we have the ability to replicate strawberries at the atomic level, then I’d grant you this point. We presently do not, and the market is filled with products calling themselves one thing while in reality being in essence a vat full of chemicals.

My point was that strawberries are a vat of chemicals.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#46

Post by denom »

mjburgess wrote: post #3

> O'ahu, at least, is teaching us important lessons that can help protect other environments not yet so degraded The entire article presumes that novelty is a degradation -- yet offers no evidence for it. So it's just an article of faith that whatever series of major evolutionary catastrophes led to to an ecology are morally or aesthetically preferable to those of human design and intention? This disneyification of n…

I think your judgement here sets aside the value of ecosystems in balance.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#47

Post by kgwxd »

Lutger wrote: post #40
mactavish88 wrote: post #5

It's always odd to me how people tend to think that human-created ecosystems are "freakish" or "unnatural". Humans evolved in the same environment as the ecosystems we're modifying. The buildings and cars and roads we make are made of materials we find on earth, similar to how birds build nests or ants make anthills. (Whether all the things we build are good and healthy for us and our environment is another story.) M…

There are several competing, and sometimes complementary perspectives on what 'nature' means. Some include humans and their activity within it, others do not. One thing you can ask yourself: if human activity and the impact it has on its environment is included in what you call 'natural', then what even does remain of the word 'unnatural'? What do people refer to, when they use that word? If you don't have any sensib…

> what even does remain of the word 'unnatural'?

Shame.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#48

Post by haswell »

trelane wrote: post #45
haswell wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we have the ability to replicate strawberries at the atomic level, then I’d grant you this point. We presently do not, and the market is filled with products calling themselves one thing while in reality being in essence a vat full of chemicals.

My point was that strawberries are a vat of chemicals.

But surely you’d agree that “vat of chemicals” is not the only metric by which to evaluate a substance, and that not all vats of chemicals are strawberries.

You can play this game with everything that exists. Everything is just a concoction of atoms. But some arrangements of atoms result in nuclear weapons. Others make up the breakfast I ate this morning.

The fact that they’re all just atoms doesn’t mean they share other properties like: safe to eat, tastes good to humans, etc.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#49

Post by denom »

mactavish88 wrote: post #5

It's always odd to me how people tend to think that human-created ecosystems are "freakish" or "unnatural". Humans evolved in the same environment as the ecosystems we're modifying. The buildings and cars and roads we make are made of materials we find on earth, similar to how birds build nests or ants make anthills. (Whether all the things we build are good and healthy for us and our environment is another story.) M…

With our consumption humans are drawing down on the ‘reserve’ that ecological services have built up.

Human activities lack the sophistication of an ecosystem that is in balance and cannot recreate the network of benefits thereof.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#50

Post by hiccuphippo »

binarymax wrote: post #14
eloisius wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it George Carlin that joked something like “maybe the earth conjured up humans in order to put all this plastic in its crust for some purpose we don’t understand”?

He certainly decried the use of “all-natural” labels for products, because “everything comes from nature!”

Just like organic and non-organic vegetables. All vegetables are organic!
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