Live data from Hacker News

Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

economist.com

131–140 of 789 posts

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#131
post #67

So this sounds just like PayID in Australia or what was payM in the UK (which got shut down a couple of years ago due to lack of use), minus the QR code generation part. It's used between private people to make it easier to send money to one another without having to type in bank account details, but never really used to pay businesses (except under the table). How come this is so popular in Brasil for paying busines…

The pix revolution is for very small business: food stalls, mom and pop shops, seasonal sellers, street vendors, independent and informal professionals (plumbers, electricians, etc).

Brazil adopted banking cards very fast and I remember using them virtually everywhere in debit or credit mode as early as my first card in 2008, I never had to carry money around. But they require two things that are a problem in a Brazil sized country with a Brazil density and infra structure: cell coverage and equipment. So small towns, small shops, independent professionals, etc would not have them or even be able to use them sometimes. Even today there are lots of places with internet but not cell coverage (radio, fiberglass or other infra but no cell tower).

This was changing on its own recently, many companies launched new machines that are cheaper and allow more small vendors to accept cards (+ working over the internet). This is still worse than the free approach of pix (for normal people) and a potentially lower fee for companies. Plus it allows people to buy with something they will have on them way more than their wallet, their phones.

I was in Brazil last week and I had to use pix only a few times to pay: parking (beach lot), tire fix (very small shop on the road) and thats it, everywhere else I used my credit card. Even though they accept pix, its not that huge of a difference for traditional business as far as I can tell, the payment terminal will also facilite pix transactions.

ps. you can tap and pay with pix too! https://support.google.com/googlepay/answer/14615541

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#132

I'm a Brazilian. Everything here can be paid through pix. It's very convenient, fast reliable and, for a country like ours where walking on the streets with money is a risk, safe. There's only one reason I don't use it: there's no FLOSS app (AFAIK) to use it. Something as common as the dominant payment system should not depend on proprietary software.

Do you use/recommend any FOSS payment system? I could not find any VISA foss software. if there is any payment system that MAY be FOSS in the future, it is PIX. Not apple wallet.

Contactless pix will (has? It’s been a bit since I had to worry about payment rails) allow pix integration with Apple Wallet.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#133
post #15

WhatsApp is omnipresent for communication in Brazil, and WhatsApp Pay was ready before Pix, but the government blocked the launch to launch Pix first.[1] I rarely see this mentioned. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/technology/brazil-suspends-w...

This is presented as problematic, but I don’t think it’s a negative thing.

You wouldn’t want a foreign company with billions of dollars in their war chest in charge of your countries payment system.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#134
post #67

So this sounds just like PayID in Australia or what was payM in the UK (which got shut down a couple of years ago due to lack of use), minus the QR code generation part. It's used between private people to make it easier to send money to one another without having to type in bank account details, but never really used to pay businesses (except under the table). How come this is so popular in Brasil for paying busines…

> payM in the UK (which got shut down a couple of years ago due to lack of use)

I'd never even heard of this! Certainly never seen anyone offering it. Guess it got run over by lack of state capacity during Brexit etc.

> paying businesses vs using a card or your phone to tap and pay

These schemes (izettle etc) have higher costs. The poorer the country the more significant a low-cost business TX option is.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#135
post #5

> Pix has spiced up Brazil’s fusty banking sector, but it gives the central bank a worrying amount of power I think a largely prefer a government-run payment system than an US company monopoly.

I don't think it is a realistic option in the US, at least in the current climate. There are so many powerful and influential anti/small-government that are rabidly opposing anything made by the government, and offered to the people. The argument is always the same: - "It will stifle innovation" - "It is unfair to business" - "It will make people dependent on the government" - "It will give government more access to…

>For decades the American people have been told that anything the government touches will be expensive, inefficient, and lead to a more taxes. Private sector knows best, and all that.

Do you have some counter arguments?

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#136
It is interesting that I did no see in the comments the costs of using Mastercard & Visa as a reason for governments to find alternatives for their economies.

Both Visa and MC are US companies so there is where the profits go ....

From US Senate hearing : "This is classic, classic monopolistic behavior. Yet you're testimony...is you don't want any competition...I'm having a hard time finding that position defensible, let alone sympathetic...it's unbelievable the amount of money you're making."

Margin 50% ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks3wP1nlg6U

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet we, a developing "third-world" country, have a better functioning payment system than the US, where it takes days, or even weeks, for a wire transfer to land, and you pay a huge amount of fees for that. Cases in point: - To transfer money to a broker, I need to pay around $5 in transfer fees via ACH or wire - I want to change the custody of my stock market assets from one broker to another, and it will cost me $7…

I don’t understand this binary. The UK was able to create a near-instant bank transfer system without monopolizing in the same way. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments It costing more for instant transfers is just a regressive tax on the working poor.

I can't find the details of the UK system, but it's not "monopolized" in Brazil. Perhaps due to the fact that the infra is provided by the Central Bank, and banks choosing to implement Pix support must implement the Pix APIs in their system.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a question of national security not to let Meta eat that cake, and Brasil made the right choice. Tangentially related, I've heard talk of EU alternative to VISA and Mastercard, which I also believe is the right direction.

WhatsApp Pay is available today in Brazil. The official reason for blocking the launch was missing paperwork, but word on the street at the time was that it was to favor Pix. This is all mentioned in the Retuers article. The reasons for favoring Pix are left for one to speculate. You say national security, the other says financial surveillance and control over the population. Time will tell.

Financial surveillance would happen either way. It’s either from your government or to a foreign company, bundled and sold en mass.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#139
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much As a citizen of a still kind-of-functioning democracy, I'd happily make the trade if that means Apple, Google, Visa or Mastercard don't have the information anymore.

Then I would prefer to do transactions with crypto. I don't want neither a government nor corporation to peek on all my transactions.

.. so you put them on a globally visible blockchain?

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#140
post #58

Hopefully ECB’s TARGET Instant Payment Settlement (TIPS) service will enable the same widespread adoption. With a price of 0.002 euro per transaction it’s guaranteed to become the most convenient solution.

Doesn't pretty much every country in Europe already have such a service?
Post reply on HN