Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant • Hacker News Board

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#21

Post by londons_explore » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:01 PM UTC

mhluongo wrote: post #11

SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Does it work internationally? Does it send USD as well, or only the real? If it solves th same problems, why is Brazil considering banning self-custodial USD stablecoins? And why has there been an ongoing discussion about launching mBRL, and stablecoin pegged to the real? https://www.pymnts.com/cryptocurrency/2024/brazil-considers-...

Nearly every non-western country has it's own e-cash type system.

Everything from m-pesa in Kenya to Gcash in the Philippines to PromptPay in Thailand to Alipay in China to SGQR in Singapore to MPay in Oman....

The pattern is that these systems are nearly all fully centralised, require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned, and not cross border.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#22

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:02 PM UTC

oulipo wrote: post #13

SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

Interestig, but this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much. They can also (if there's a rogue government) create fake transactions to implicate you in things you haven't done

Any half competent government can always create fake transactions to implicate people, whether it’s a paper or electronic (government currency) transaction.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#23

Post by diggan » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:03 PM UTC

m00dy wrote: post #19

SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Pix can't facilitate cross-border micro payments.

> Pix can't facilitate cross-border micro payments.

No reason it couldn't. Bizum (mobile payments in Spain) started with just Spain but can now be used for payments across & to/from Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Andorra.

Bizum is also a member of European Mobile Payment Systems Association which I think will eventually lead to all members being able to make transfers to other members, but that might a somewhat dream rather than actual reality today.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#24

Post by julkali » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:03 PM UTC

oulipo wrote: post #13

SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

Interestig, but this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much. They can also (if there's a rogue government) create fake transactions to implicate you in things you haven't done

That's why central bank digital currencies are the way to go - same amount of trust as the (real) base currency and near-cash-level privacy (modulo implementation details)

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#25

Post by jowea » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:03 PM UTC

mhluongo wrote: post #11

SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Does it work internationally? Does it send USD as well, or only the real? If it solves th same problems, why is Brazil considering banning self-custodial USD stablecoins? And why has there been an ongoing discussion about launching mBRL, and stablecoin pegged to the real? https://www.pymnts.com/cryptocurrency/2024/brazil-considers-...

Only real afaik, although there have been some thoughts to integrating some neighbours to the system. Right afaik it works in shops popular with Brazilian tourists in the Southern Cone through some workarounds.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#26

Post by londons_explore » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:03 PM UTC

JusticeJuice wrote: post #20

marcodiego wrote: post #14

I'm a Brazilian. Everything here can be paid through pix. It's very convenient, fast reliable and, for a country like ours where walking on the streets with money is a risk, safe. There's only one reason I don't use it: there's no FLOSS app (AFAIK) to use it. Something as common as the dominant payment system should not depend on proprietary software.

> Something as common as the dominant payment system should not depend on proprietary software. Name one dominant payment system worldwide that doesn't? Banks are proprietary, credit cards are proprietary, paypal, crypto is all proprietary.

Nearly all of cryptocurrency is fully open source and properly FOSS

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#27

Post by forty » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:04 PM UTC

oulipo wrote: post #13

SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

Interestig, but this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much. They can also (if there's a rogue government) create fake transactions to implicate you in things you haven't done

Is it much more worrying than having Visa being able to do that? Especially when you see how the US is going downhill, I think it'd rather take the risk of having to deal with hypothetical local fascist state.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#28

Post by jowea » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:05 PM UTC

afarah1 wrote: post #15

WhatsApp is omnipresent for communication in Brazil, and WhatsApp Pay was ready before Pix, but the government blocked the launch to launch Pix first.[1] I rarely see this mentioned. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/technology/brazil-suspends-w...

Well I'm thanking the government for saving us from yet another Facebook monopoly thorough first mover advantage and network effects.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#29

Post by Wilder7977 » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:05 PM UTC

oulipo wrote: post #13

SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

Interestig, but this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much. They can also (if there's a rogue government) create fake transactions to implicate you in things you haven't done

There is virtually no difference with a private entity which can be compelled by the government to do the same, plus has its own profit motive which could also create incentive to do it.

There must be a non-repudiation and integrity check to verify transactions (e.g., in Estonia I sign digitally all my transactions), so the latter problem is easier to mitigate.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#30

Post by yetihehe » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:05 PM UTC

trollbridge wrote: post #10

Standard workflow in Brazil: - You need to buy something from person XZ, whether an individual, small business, or huge business. - XZ sends you an invoice (including relevant taxes). - You pay the invoice. XZ knows you’ve paid. - At year end you can download all your invoices, including any taxes already paid, for doing your taxes. (Brazil taxes make American taxation look simple.) Standard workflow in America: - “D…

Standard workflow in Poland for normal people:

- You buy something and pay the stated price with money, phone/card or "blik" (free cashapp).

- Your taxes are already prefilled by your employer. If you have some "tax relief" items, you add it on webpage and make some clicks to confirm. If no reliefs, you don't need to do anything.