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A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

bbc.com

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Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#21

Post by 542354234235 »

mactavish88 wrote: post #5

It's always odd to me how people tend to think that human-created ecosystems are "freakish" or "unnatural". Humans evolved in the same environment as the ecosystems we're modifying. The buildings and cars and roads we make are made of materials we find on earth, similar to how birds build nests or ants make anthills. (Whether all the things we build are good and healthy for us and our environment is another story.) M…

I think it is a useful distinction for non-religious reasons. First is that humans change the environment more than anything else, by a large margin. As they say, “the dose makes the poison”. All species modify the environment they live in, but none are reshaping the oceans, every landmass, the air, the climate etc. like humans. Humans created multiple elements that never existed on earth.

Second, humans are conscious of the things we are doing. We can write articles about it and make choices about how we will change the environment in the future. We cannot discuss things with wolves in Yellowstone about how they are changing the area. The cinnamon trees in Hawaii can’t get together and decide how to share space with other plants.

And finally, always have at least three items when listing things.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#22

Post by throwaway290 »

mactavish88 wrote: post #5

It's always odd to me how people tend to think that human-created ecosystems are "freakish" or "unnatural". Humans evolved in the same environment as the ecosystems we're modifying. The buildings and cars and roads we make are made of materials we find on earth, similar to how birds build nests or ants make anthills. (Whether all the things we build are good and healthy for us and our environment is another story.) M…

Humans are part of nature but if humans are also growing to have disproportionate impact on the rest of nature it kinda worth thinking about what's going on then

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#23

Post by Ygg2 »

dodslaser wrote: post #20
Biologist123 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well done in getting this up immediately. Pieces like this BBC piece are either implicit or explicit propaganda to define “nature” as a world without humans. Even the word “freakosystem”, as novel as it is, sets up an implicit good/bad dichotomy. Edit: If you on-board the assumption that all change is bad, you potentially open yourself up to a great deal of anxiety associated with that change.

While this is technically correct, there is an important distinction to be made that we are the only species capable of even understanding the ramifications of our actions on an ecosystem, and choosing to change our behavior to have less (or more) of an impact on the environment we are in. Any species could drive another species to extinction, or carry them from one location to another, but no other species are activ…

What does "actively choosing" mean? An ant might choose to move the bugs they milk. Do they count?

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#24

Post by haswell »

Ygg2 wrote: post #23
dodslaser wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is technically correct, there is an important distinction to be made that we are the only species capable of even understanding the ramifications of our actions on an ecosystem, and choosing to change our behavior to have less (or more) of an impact on the environment we are in. Any species could drive another species to extinction, or carry them from one location to another, but no other species are activ…

What does "actively choosing" mean? An ant might choose to move the bugs they milk. Do they count?

I’d define this as: we consciously understand the potential and real consequences of our actions.

Ants operate on instinct and are not capable of extrapolating higher order consequences like we are.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#25

Post by haswell »

gman83 wrote: post #18
mactavish88 wrote: post #5

It's always odd to me how people tend to think that human-created ecosystems are "freakish" or "unnatural". Humans evolved in the same environment as the ecosystems we're modifying. The buildings and cars and roads we make are made of materials we find on earth, similar to how birds build nests or ants make anthills. (Whether all the things we build are good and healthy for us and our environment is another story.) M…

It reminds me of people who won't eat certain foods because it contains "too many chemicals".

Except we know certain chemicals are harmful, and we have no idea about the long term effects of many others. We also have a history of using materials we don’t understand and only stopping after it kills or harms enough people.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#26

Post by 542354234235 »

Biologist123 wrote: post #12
faassen wrote: post #7

A good book about the related topic of novel urban ecosystems is "Darwin Comes to Town: How the Urban Jungle Drives Evolution" by Menno Schilthuizen. For urban ecosystems Schilthuizen argues we should accept it; cities are a new habitat anyway, and we should treasure the novel ecosystem that forms in them. For non-urban places where thriving existing ecosystems get changed completely due to introductions the picture…

If you set up (or more likely inherit) a story that change = loss, you will also onboard a needless eco-anxiety.

If your house burns down, your couch, photo albums, home server, and cats “change” into piles of ash. As amazing as piles of ash are, your previous belongings were unique and had value to you, and would be much more difficult to replace than the ash would be.

Large mammals take 10s of millions of years to evolve. Their extinction due to “change” by humans is irreplaceable, for all intents and purposes. This idea that all changes are somehow neutral and so don’t matter is ridiculous.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#27

Post by treyd »

mjburgess wrote: post #9
decimalenough wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I get where you're coming from and agree to some extent, the cost of introducing new species is often the eradication of native species that can't compete. The moral argument is that those species deserve to be protected because they're valuable as is, while the utilitarian argument is that if native species die, we're losing access to genetic diversity that could be exploited now or in the future for medical t…

They're being replaced by ecologies useful to humans, here a variety of crops and the like. I'm unconvinced that the land should exist for some specific species of mice and birds, but not for us. All I really hear is that some very small group of aesthetically-minded human apes are precious about one more variety of bird, against the interest of very many other human apes that need to eat. If the new ecology were rea…

The GP gave a good reason that directly explains why biodiversity is useful to humans:

> we're losing access to genetic diversity that could be exploited now or in the future for medical treatments, innovations in science, etc.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#28

Post by soared »

If you’re interested in this, the garden below is very worth visiting.

https://ntbg.org/gardens/limahuli

It’s built into sections - plants from before any humans landed in Hawaii, plants from early settlers, plants from the plantation period, etc.

My favorite learning was canoe plants (maybe a different name) - plants that early settlers would bring with them when exploring new islands in their canoe that were critical to their survival. They provided food, medicine, etc.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#29

Post by Biologist123 »

dodslaser wrote: post #20
Biologist123 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well done in getting this up immediately. Pieces like this BBC piece are either implicit or explicit propaganda to define “nature” as a world without humans. Even the word “freakosystem”, as novel as it is, sets up an implicit good/bad dichotomy. Edit: If you on-board the assumption that all change is bad, you potentially open yourself up to a great deal of anxiety associated with that change.

While this is technically correct, there is an important distinction to be made that we are the only species capable of even understanding the ramifications of our actions on an ecosystem, and choosing to change our behavior to have less (or more) of an impact on the environment we are in. Any species could drive another species to extinction, or carry them from one location to another, but no other species are activ…

Thanks, “actively choosing” assumes we have conscious will. Whilst widespread, this belief is alas just an assumption.

Re: A wild 'freakosystem' has been born in Hawaii

#30

Post by Biologist123 »

542354234235 wrote: post #26
Biologist123 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you set up (or more likely inherit) a story that change = loss, you will also onboard a needless eco-anxiety.

If your house burns down, your couch, photo albums, home server, and cats “change” into piles of ash. As amazing as piles of ash are, your previous belongings were unique and had value to you, and would be much more difficult to replace than the ash would be. Large mammals take 10s of millions of years to evolve. Their extinction due to “change” by humans is irreplaceable, for all intents and purposes. This idea that…

You make the assumption that maintaining the status quo is the norm. In reality, change is the norm - sometimes slow, sometimes fast.

I make this point because I strongly suspect humans become unhappy when their expectations divert from reality in a way that feels costly to them. If our expectation was environmental change, rather than equilibrium, this might change our opportunity set for managing, for example, environmental and climate change. And make us a lot less unhappy.

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