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Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

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Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#441
post #440
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FMEA is not a “reliability study”. Reliability studies are inputs to FMEAs. Where do you think the likelihood data comes from? If you’re doing an FMEA before a reliability study, your probabilities are just guesses. I don’t think any FMEA is going to list “ditch into the ocean” as an acceptable mitigation. Ie it will never be a way to buy risk down to an acceptable level. > it isn’t an analysis of mitigation strategi…

Semantics and recursion aside. That separation where “ditch into the ocean” is not a listed mitigation for FMEA, but is eventually considered and added to manuals is why I’m saying it’s incomplete. 100% AI systems can be safer than human in the loop systems avoiding suicide by pilot etc, but conversely that means the AI must also deal with extreme edge cases. It’s a subtle but critical nuance.

Based on your answers, I'm guessing you haven't been involved in this process. (Not saying it as a bad thing, but just as a rationale for clarifying with further discussion).

An FMEA (and other safety-critical/quality products) go through an approval process. So if "ditch into the ocean" is not on the FMEA, it means they should have other mitigations/controls that bought the risk down to an acceptable level. They can't/shouldn't just push forward with a risk that exceeds their acceptable tolerance. If implemented correctly, the FMEA is complete insomuch as it ensured each hazard was brought to an acceptable risk level. And certainly, a safety officer isn't going to say the system doesn't need further controls because they put "ditch into the ocean" in the manuals. If that's the rationale, it begs the question "Why wasn't the risk mitigated in the FMEA and hazard analysis?" Usually it's because they're trying to move fast due to cost/schedule pressure, not because they managed the risk. There are edge cases, but even something like a double bird strike can be considered an acceptable risk because the probability is so low. Not impossible, but low enough. That’s what “ditch in the ocean” operations are for.

I agree that software system can improve safety but we shouldn't assume so without the relevant rigor that includes formal risk mitigation. Software tends to elicit interfacing faults; the implication being as the number of interfaces increases the potential number of fault modes can increase geometrically. This means it is much harder to test/mitigate software faults, especially when implementing a black-box AI model. My hunch is that many of those trying to implement AI in safety-critical applications are not rigorously mitigating risk like more mature domains. Because, you know, move fast and break things.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#442

The point I soured on Musk was when he ditched radar/lidar and tried to go with camera's alone. This made me realize he is not the genius he is made out to be but instead he is a fraud/charlatan and over the years his statements on different topics have only hardened that belief. Why the fuck would you want ai cars to be the same as humans you should want them to be many times better and radarr/lidar sonarr type tech…

> instead he is a fraud/charlatan and... Just see him talking about things at NeuraLink. Musk wouldn't exist if it weren't for the people working for him. It's a clown that made it to the top in a very dubious way.

> Musk wouldn't exist if it weren't for the people working for him.

I've decided Musk core talent is creating and running an engineering team. He's done it many times now - Tesla, SpaceX, Paypal, even twitter.

It's interesting because I suspect he isn't a particular good engineer himself, although the only evidence I have for that is tried to convert Paypal from Linux to Windows. His addiction to AI's getting results quickly isn't a good look either. To make the product work in the long term the technique has to get you 100% of the way there, not the 70% we see in Tesla and of now DOGE. He isn't particularly good at running businesses either, as both twitter shows and his solar roof's show.

But that doesn't matter. He's assembled lots of engineering teams now, and he just needs a few of them to work to make him rich. Long ago it was people who could build train lines faster and cheaper than anyone else that drove the economy, then it was oil fields, then I dunno - maybe assembly lines powered by humans. But now wealth creation is driven by teams of very high level engineers duking it out, whether they be developing 5G, car assembly lines or rockets. Build the best team and you win. Musk has won several times now, in very different fields.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#443
post #441
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semantics and recursion aside. That separation where “ditch into the ocean” is not a listed mitigation for FMEA, but is eventually considered and added to manuals is why I’m saying it’s incomplete. 100% AI systems can be safer than human in the loop systems avoiding suicide by pilot etc, but conversely that means the AI must also deal with extreme edge cases. It’s a subtle but critical nuance.

Based on your answers, I'm guessing you haven't been involved in this process. (Not saying it as a bad thing, but just as a rationale for clarifying with further discussion). An FMEA (and other safety-critical/quality products) go through an approval process. So if "ditch into the ocean" is not on the FMEA, it means they should have other mitigations/controls that bought the risk down to an acceptable level. They can…

[deleted]

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's still real value in continuing to use the best technology we have available to make flying even safer. That's true, but it would obviously be completely unreasonable to stop all flying in the meantime.

Grounding entire fleets of aircraft when a safety issue is discovered is completely normal, and that's the way things should happen. Remember when the MCAS issue was discovered on Boeing 737 MAXes after 2 fatal crashes? They were all grounded for a while, and rightfully so.

Two fatal crashes that resulted in 300+ fatalities iirc. Human driven cars have many more fatalities than self driving cars and no one is talking about stopping all road travel until we can fix it. Your argument is disingenuous at best if not deliberately deceptive.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it? Seems to be what they do.

No - it's based on hype and dreams. If it was solely based on fundamentals TSLA would carry an car company multiple, dropping a digit off it's share price. At that price, Elon would have a significant chunk of his TSLA holdings margin called away and be less of a threat to the world and the people on it as a whole.

This type of earnest hyperbole always makes me chuckle, people really have become completely detached from reality

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#446
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference to me, as a motorcyclist, is that to prevent humans from crashing cars into motorcycles is complicated. There are a multitude of reasons someone may not be paying attention or may not see another vehicle. This problem with Tesla has an easily implemented solution that could be deployed now but isn't. We don't have such a solution for non-Tesla crashes into motorcycles. How many motorcyclists deaths are…

Installing LIDAR isn't an "easily implemented solution", assuming that's what you mean. Otherwise why not mandate that all cars have LIDAR, self-driving or not?

It doesn't have to be LIDAR. Other modern cars that have adaptive cruise control avoid hitting motorcycles using simple radar, and have been doing so for many years.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#447
post #374
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another part of the problem: Waymo, for example, doesn't provide motorcycle specific stats. They only provide collisions with vehicles, bicycles, and pedestrians. There's no breakdown of vehicle type. So the basis of this article is already bullshit and likely done just for "space man bad" reasons

Well we can come up the number of Waymo-involved motorcycle fatalities from such a breakdown easily from the total fatalities which is 0

Yes but this is like saying "medical school graduates kill more people through surgical medical mistakes than any other profession". Virtually no one else is meaningfully performing surgery on humans at numbers high enough to kill them.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#448
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge difference between measuring the distance to a single target a few miles away, and measuring the distance to dozens of moving, accelerating, and overlapping objects in close proximity to each other and to the reference point. Besides, rangefinding optics weren't exactly amazing in the 1940s either. It's why the introduction of radar made such a massive difference in naval warfare.

Autofocus systems are designed to stop race cars in travel today already. And besides, why argue hypotheticals here when I look out my window and I see teslas self driving just fine? The system is proven despite your feelings about it. And if it was truly unsafe or compromised we'd have seen a good deal of evidence a this point what with the amount of users self driving and the mileage they've been traveling, not to…

> And besides, why argue hypotheticals here ...

You are the one who raised the 1940s optical rangefinder question, and now talking about autofocus, which is a totally different problem than dense ranging from optical stereo disparity.

If you don't want to argue hypotheticals, don't do it.

If you choose to argue technical details in the absence of expertise, expect pushback from people with domain knowledge.

I spent 5 years working on long-distance optical stereo as part of a DARPA program, with a team that was very committed to stereo vision. Our limited success left me with an appreciation of the challenges versus lidar.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been driving my new model Y with FSD since Monday and it's really cool works great. Just drove from home to a restaurant without touching the steering wheel. It does work I'm livin it.

and it drove me back just now, flawlessly. i must be living in an alternate reality to these "journalists". they are so transparent about why they write this stuff hahaha

No one is saying it won't work in great conditions. It's all the bad conditions and at all times that is the issue.
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