Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age • Hacker News Board

Re: Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age

#71

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 09, 2012, 2:18 AM UTC

pg wrote: post #24

atacrawl wrote: post #19

One feature that’s still missing, though, is actually running spreadsheet-style calculations on your numbers in Grid. Doesn't this preclude Grid from being a spreadsheet app?

No more than any version one of something is precluded from becoming complete. Maybe you think you're making some sort of important point here. Or maybe you realize your comment is inane and you think it's witty. But (perhaps without realizing it) you and the people upvoting you represent one of the worst forces at work in the world. The people who ridicule new things when they first appear in incomplete form are one…

[deleted]

Re: Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age

#72

Post by MrMan » Thu, Aug 09, 2012, 2:37 AM UTC

ObeyTheGrid wrote: post #36

pg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No more than any version one of something is precluded from becoming complete. Maybe you think you're making some sort of important point here. Or maybe you realize your comment is inane and you think it's witty. But (perhaps without realizing it) you and the people upvoting you represent one of the worst forces at work in the world. The people who ridicule new things when they first appear in incomplete form are one…

>And you know what's the biggest thing holding them back? The fear that people will make fun of the first thing they launch. Good. The software world is absolutely flooded with half baked crap backed by expensive marketing. As a software user it's a waste of my time when somebody releases "A Simply Remarkable Spreadsheet" that allows you to "organize and work with them in a whole new intuitive way" and it lacks the b…

I wish I had read your comment before posting mine. While you go a bit far in the polemical direction I find myself strongly reacting to the naked flogging that I am subjected to as this boom advances. In 2007 you could just read about programming and worry about the looming depression.

Now we are all expected to pitch in and enrich everyone around us who can network a little bit.

Let's innovate some ways to get water to the heartland! Whoops too hard, let's innovate javascript.

Re: Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age

#73

Post by ekianjo » Thu, Aug 09, 2012, 3:09 AM UTC

pg wrote: post #24

atacrawl wrote: post #19

One feature that’s still missing, though, is actually running spreadsheet-style calculations on your numbers in Grid. Doesn't this preclude Grid from being a spreadsheet app?

No more than any version one of something is precluded from becoming complete. Maybe you think you're making some sort of important point here. Or maybe you realize your comment is inane and you think it's witty. But (perhaps without realizing it) you and the people upvoting you represent one of the worst forces at work in the world. The people who ridicule new things when they first appear in incomplete form are one…

I think the question was very valid. It's like if you describe "an word processing app, but for now it only integrates pictures in the document. Typing function to come later!" - in the same way a spreadsheet is not software that is used to put pictures and tables. Expectations when you see the word "spreadsheet" is being able to run complex, calculations, and maybe macros to accelerate your workflow. Calling this piece of software "spreadsheet" is an abuse of what spreadsheets have been standing for, for a very long time now.

Re: Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age

#74

Post by rhplus » Thu, Aug 09, 2012, 4:11 AM UTC

"He was the designer of Microsoft’s upcoming Excel 2013, after all"

The concepts look great, but the pitch that he was "the designer of Excel 2013" rubbed me the wrong way. The Office UX design team is not a one man show. I thought maybe the reporter was puffing things up a little, but even on Josh's personal website[1] he's claiming he was the designer.

"I worked as the Excel 2013 designer which I transitioned into from a software engineering role"

[1] http://joshleong.com/

Re: Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age

#75

Post by Johngibb » Thu, Aug 09, 2012, 4:17 AM UTC

pg wrote: post #24

atacrawl wrote: post #19

One feature that’s still missing, though, is actually running spreadsheet-style calculations on your numbers in Grid. Doesn't this preclude Grid from being a spreadsheet app?

No more than any version one of something is precluded from becoming complete. Maybe you think you're making some sort of important point here. Or maybe you realize your comment is inane and you think it's witty. But (perhaps without realizing it) you and the people upvoting you represent one of the worst forces at work in the world. The people who ridicule new things when they first appear in incomplete form are one…

Maybe you're reading way too much into their comment, and unfairly jumping into a judgement? I didn't sense the same feeling of ridicule. If the founders are on here, how did you take it?

I interpreted it his question as genuinely wondering if "the ability to calculate formulas is a defining characteristic of a spreadsheet." Perhaps it's not, but it's not something to bite his head off for!

Jumping to conclusions and failing to give the benefit of the doubt is another drag on intelligent discourse and innovation!

Re: Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age

#76

Post by Johngibb » Thu, Aug 09, 2012, 4:20 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #51

kajecounterhack wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you phrased it as less of a critical question e.g "Does this preclude Grid from being a spreadsheet app right now?" and/or perhaps "Will this feature be added eventually?" -- you may have received a warmer response. I do think the response was a bit sharp but I hope it's understandable. Paul never said he wanted you to heap praise on the app. A simple rephrasing would have sufficed :)

The gp commenter's feelings were hurt. Understandably so, though that's also not how pg meant his comment. (Note that pg's comment is conditional, therefore speaking directly to the ambiguity.)

You really don't think pg's comment was meant to hurt feelings?

This is pretty freaking harsh, and I imagine would trigger a feeling of defensiveness in almost anyone: "Maybe you think you're making some sort of important point here. Or maybe you realize your comment is inane and you think it's witty. But (perhaps without realizing it) you and the people upvoting you represent one of the worst forces at work in the world."

It's incongruous with the site guidelines, in fact: "... Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names ..."

Re: Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age

#77

Post by Johngibb » Thu, Aug 09, 2012, 4:25 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #39

pg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No more than any version one of something is precluded from becoming complete. Maybe you think you're making some sort of important point here. Or maybe you realize your comment is inane and you think it's witty. But (perhaps without realizing it) you and the people upvoting you represent one of the worst forces at work in the world. The people who ridicule new things when they first appear in incomplete form are one…

Founders' emotional reactions to criticism aside, isn't one of the chief benefits of releasing quickly the market input? One can feel sad about that feedback or, after properly weighting it, parse it as the valuable guidance it is. The markets provide cruel, ruthless feedback in the form of buy/pass behaviour. Getting that feedback as early as possible on one's MVP is insightful, albeit painful. Criticism can be more…

Exactly. It didn't seem like ridiculing, and it was certainly a thought I had as well: is the app viable as a spreadsheet without formulas?

I think it is - I like the concept, agree that people use spreadsheet for far more than calculations. But bringing up the discussion of whether they're necessary should help the founders decide if they should focus on adding that before scaling up the marketing or whether it's useful as is...

Re: Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age

#78

Post by davisml » Thu, Aug 09, 2012, 4:36 AM UTC

So it's graph paper that you can talk to?

Re: Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age

#79

Post by julianz » Thu, Aug 09, 2012, 5:25 AM UTC

ArbitraryLimits wrote: post #56

killwhitey wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm just not familiar with modern usage of the word 'spreadsheet' but when I hear it I instantly think of accounting worksheets, visicalc, excel and the like. If the very core of this app isn't the same as a classic spreadsheet app, why even throw that word around? It's bad marketing.

I think it's excellent marketing - they're clearly targeting people who use the word "spreadsheet" to mean "lists that don't involve math" and it's always easier to keep speaking your target customer's language than to try to teach them a new one.

Those people call "lists that don't involve math" an "Excel". They have never heard the term "spreadsheet".

Re: Grid (YC S12) Reinvents The Spreadsheet For The Tablet Age

#80

Post by stcredzero » Thu, Aug 09, 2012, 6:02 AM UTC

Johngibb wrote: post #76

stcredzero wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gp commenter's feelings were hurt. Understandably so, though that's also not how pg meant his comment. (Note that pg's comment is conditional, therefore speaking directly to the ambiguity.)

You really don't think pg's comment was meant to hurt feelings? This is pretty freaking harsh, and I imagine would trigger a feeling of defensiveness in almost anyone: "Maybe you think you're making some sort of important point here. Or maybe you realize your comment is inane and you think it's witty. But (perhaps without realizing it) you and the people upvoting you represent one of the worst forces at work in the w…

There is no name calling there. He's covering the bases of the commenter's mental state, then explaining the unfortunate circumstance he sees. The "maybe you" phrases could be interpreted as harshness, but I think it's more likely that they're to be taken exactly at face value, and that pg wants to call attention to this circumstance.