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The 'Judicial Black Hole' of El Salvador's Prisons Is a Warning for Americans

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Re: The 'Judicial Black Hole' of El Salvador's Prisons Is a Warning for Americans

#11

Post by hayst4ck »

I don't think many people have actually contemplated what absence of law, defined as rules that apply to rich and powerful people too, is like.

In a world with law, there are restriction on what society's most powerful can and can't do, because there are police officers, detectives, lawyers, and judges, who all work together to make sure there are consequences for crimes.

In a world without law, the only restriction on what someone with a lot of money or power can do is what they can get away with. We flirted with this territory by subjecting the rich to a very different justice system than the poor, but we are now solidly in the territory of no limits to rich people's power so long as they don't threaten other rich people.

We are now in the realm of having to consider not what is allowed to be done, but what can be done. We can no longer ask what is legal to do, only what is possible to do. It is possible for several men to ambush a person, put them in a car, put them in chains, and send them to a black site without due process. That is a thing that can physically happen in reality. That is a thing that has happened in other countries. Locking political opponents in mental institutions is a thing that can happen. While it seems unlikely that it will happen here, "intellectuals," those with the capability of challenging those in power, have been rounded up and forced to dig their own graves. Babies have been smashed against trees. That is a thing that has happened in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge at the killing fields. That is a thing that is possible to happen. Forced labor camps are a thing that can and has happened. Mass famine as a result of disastrous government policy is a thing that can and has happened. Extermination of humans based on genetic traits is a thing that can happen.

There is no magical power that prevents these things from happening. These things happen because people make decisions to act or not act. Individuals choose to passively let bad things happen rather than put themselves at risk to say no.

Who would stop that abduction from happening with force? What if the men doing that are police officers? What if they go after your family the day after?

The constitution is just a piece of paper. Law is just an idea. For it to have any effect on physical reality, it requires someone to take actions on its behalf. Nothing on a piece of paper forces a president to follow a law. Human beings who believe in something enforce, or don't enforce, the law.

What kind of person will you be if the unthinkable starts happening?

Re: The 'Judicial Black Hole' of El Salvador's Prisons Is a Warning for Americans

#12

Post by jandrese »

Avshalom wrote: post #5
Avshalom wrote: post #2

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=We+suggest+the+Judge+contac...

“The lack of criminal records does not indicate they pose a limited threat. In fact, based upon their association with Tren de Aragua, the lack of specific information about each specific individual actually highlights the risk they pose, https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article30...

The argument is basically that because the deportees had no due process to be deported that no due process can bring them back. The Trump administration claims that they are gang members, but provided no evidence to support this claim, and then refused to work with any members of the judicial system attempting to provide oversight. In any other administration this would be a scandal that rocks the media for months and ends with the resignation of several top officials. For the Trump administration it was Tuesday.

Re: The 'Judicial Black Hole' of El Salvador's Prisons Is a Warning for Americans

#14

Post by milesrout »

Avshalom wrote: post #5
Avshalom wrote: post #2

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=We+suggest+the+Judge+contac...

“The lack of criminal records does not indicate they pose a limited threat. In fact, based upon their association with Tren de Aragua, the lack of specific information about each specific individual actually highlights the risk they pose, https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article30...

The powers under the Act don't specify a standard of proof required. It just says:

>all natives, citizens, denizens, or subjects of the hostile nation or government, being of the age of fourteen years and upward, who shall be within the United States and not actually naturalized, shall be liable to be apprehended, restrained, secured, and removed as alien enemies. The President is authorized in any such event, by his proclamation thereof, or other public act, to direct the conduct to be observed on the part of the United States, toward the aliens who become so liable; the manner and degree of the restraint to which they shall be subject and in what cases, and upon what security their residence shall be permitted, and to provide for the removal of those who, not being permitted to reside within the United States, refuse or neglect to depart therefrom; and to establish any other regulations which are found necessary in the premises and for the public safety.

Nothing there about the President needing to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. Presumably he would need to prove the particular facts, in habeus corpus proceedings, should they be brought, only on the balance of probabilities?

Re: The 'Judicial Black Hole' of El Salvador's Prisons Is a Warning for Americans

#16

Post by weaksauce »

jandrese wrote: post #12
Avshalom wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The lack of criminal records does not indicate they pose a limited threat. In fact, based upon their association with Tren de Aragua, the lack of specific information about each specific individual actually highlights the risk they pose, https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article30...

The argument is basically that because the deportees had no due process to be deported that no due process can bring them back. The Trump administration claims that they are gang members, but provided no evidence to support this claim, and then refused to work with any members of the judicial system attempting to provide oversight. In any other administration this would be a scandal that rocks the media for months an…

yeah well on thursday he shit the bed on the economy so i guess we've moved on. stupid tariffs are one thing but the extrajudicial deportation and imprisonment is quite a worse thing if unchecked.

Re: The 'Judicial Black Hole' of El Salvador's Prisons Is a Warning for Americans

#17

Post by milesrout »

hayst4ck wrote: post #11

I don't think many people have actually contemplated what absence of law, defined as rules that apply to rich and powerful people too, is like. In a world with law, there are restriction on what society's most powerful can and can't do, because there are police officers, detectives, lawyers, and judges, who all work together to make sure there are consequences for crimes. In a world without law, the only restriction…

[flagged]

Re: The 'Judicial Black Hole' of El Salvador's Prisons Is a Warning for Americans

#18

Post by fzeroracer »

milesrout wrote: post #17
hayst4ck wrote: post #11

I don't think many people have actually contemplated what absence of law, defined as rules that apply to rich and powerful people too, is like. In a world with law, there are restriction on what society's most powerful can and can't do, because there are police officers, detectives, lawyers, and judges, who all work together to make sure there are consequences for crimes. In a world without law, the only restriction…

[flagged]

> What makes you think anyone is operating other than according to law?

The fact that they are not complying with the law.

Re: The 'Judicial Black Hole' of El Salvador's Prisons Is a Warning for Americans

#19

Post by defrost »

ein0p wrote: post #15

[flagged]

Errr, what works? No longer engaging in war with gangs?

The El Salvador President’s Informal Pact with Gangs (2020)

https://insightcrime.org/news/el-salvador-nayib-bukele-gangs...

There's more to the dramatic drop in homicide rates than simple analysis might reveal .. is it an actual drop or simply a drop in recording, etc.

Re: The 'Judicial Black Hole' of El Salvador's Prisons Is a Warning for Americans

#20

Post by femiagbabiaka »

ein0p wrote: post #15

[flagged]

If the U.S. killed and imprisoned people at the rate of El Salvador, without due process and essentially at the word of mouth of random people in the community, you’d be running to the hills. Crazy that this far into Trumps disaster and people still want right wing fascist dictatorship. You might get what you want, god help us all.
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