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A university president makes a case against cowardice

newyorker.com

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Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#761

Post by hollerith »

widowlark wrote: post #753
hollerith wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the First Amendment . . . applies to all people under the jurisdiction of the United States. Not according to the Supreme Court it doesn't.

source?

Rayiner says it in a comment upthread. Whereas most lawyers in the US work on cases filed in state court, Rayiner works on cases filed in Federal court, and if you were to sue the US government to try to assert the free-speech rights of the immigrants we are talking about, you'd do it in Federal court.

Sadly, his comment has been flagged.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#762

Post by [deleted] »

strken wrote: post #747
singleshot_ wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get fired for saying something stupid, you might want to consider the notion that you deserve not to have a job. They’re called consequences, and if you don’t like them, remaining silent is free. Put otherwise, it’s very possible that your livelihood is trivial.

This is just asinine. Consider the same argument flipped around: "If you get deported for saying something stupid, you may want to consider the notion that you do not deserve to live in the US. They’re called consequences, and if you don’t like them, remaining silent is free." Both arguments are ridiculous because they present no evidence as to whether someone deserves a job or a visa stay.

[deleted]

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#763

Post by singleshot_ »

strken wrote: post #747
singleshot_ wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get fired for saying something stupid, you might want to consider the notion that you deserve not to have a job. They’re called consequences, and if you don’t like them, remaining silent is free. Put otherwise, it’s very possible that your livelihood is trivial.

This is just asinine. Consider the same argument flipped around: "If you get deported for saying something stupid, you may want to consider the notion that you do not deserve to live in the US. They’re called consequences, and if you don’t like them, remaining silent is free." Both arguments are ridiculous because they present no evidence as to whether someone deserves a job or a visa stay.

Consequences as “asinine”? Let’s agree to disagree.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#764

Post by knowitnone »

low_tech_love wrote: post #425

Some personal highlights: "They’re excellent schools, and they have excellent scientists, and if one of Vice-President Vance’s kids is sick, he’s going to want the doctor to have gone to one of these schools; he’s not going to want them to have gone to Viktor Orbán’s university." "People have said to me, “Well, you take all that money from the government, why don’t you listen to them?” The answer is, because the mone…

The money comes from the public, not the government

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#765

Post by JumpCrisscross »

noworriesnate wrote: post #665
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I’ve railed quite a bit against the left. But looking back, we should have fired and deplatformed more aggressively. The social menaces who weren’t fired or arrested went on to become a plague.

The thing is, right wingers are very likely to protest over losing jobs. In Covid times, what made the right finally start actually marching in the streets was losing their jobs. They don’t protest over most things, but threaten their livelihood and yeah they’ll come for you.

> right wingers are very likely to protest over losing jobs

Everybody protests over losing jobs. Currently, the MAGA crowd is busily putting itself out of work, so this really only comes down to taking action in the cities.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#766

Post by hayst4ck »

yyyk wrote: post #731
hnhg wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people get confused into thinking that democracy is about voting when it is should be about reducing prolonged concentrations of power, because of the innate tendency for it to be abused and hoarded. So to support your point, if your culture does not support the concept of good "democratic" governance, and no one strives for the institutions and constitutions to support it, you might be better off with a bene…

Democracy and elections are not opinion polls. It's a distribution of political power.

That's true but it's not usefully true.

Even avoiding things like gerrymandering, are voters choosing politicians or are politicians choosing voters?

Do candidates send out emails asking for you to talk to your friends, or do they ask for more money? Do candidates have principled stances founded on an underlying philosophy, or do they focus on issues that are emotional in order to drum up support.

I think "why do candidates ask for money" is a very very important question to ruminate on as is "why are we talking about abortion and race rather than health and housing"?

Before a general election there is a primary and before a primary there is fundraising. In order to succeed in a primary, in general, you have to do OK at fundraising. Fundraising is not dissimilar to an election and it happens before primaries. This means money votes first, which is why it feels like we have a "democracy" approved of by those with money, we literally do.

Money votes first.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#767

Post by iugtmkbdfil834 »

adamc wrote: post #613
hsiuywbs630h wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listen, this is not theoretical. In my realm, we had people getting in trouble for otherwise benign speech, because someone's feeling matter more than basic.common sense. The pendulum has swung pretty hard not because sjw bogeyman, but because it has gotten to the point people skilled in ignoring corporate idiocy had enough AND the chronic complainers were demanding increasing superpowers.

"Getting in trouble" at work and being disappeared are so freaking different that there is no discussing it. If you cannot see a difference, you are blind.

Hmm. Allow me to offer a counter perspective. You are arguing for a complete dismissal of someone's point of view, because you perceive the presented argument to be not an appropriate comparison. However, your response is that the conversation should be shut down and not address the points given. I do not think anyone in this thread is arguing it is not happening. Some of us are actually saying that there is a quite a slippery that we were taken down on. If it helps, it did not start in 2018 ( although some tactics did escalate in that period ).

And, I might add, in US, your work is not just your work. It is your healthcare, your network, your family's wellbeing. If you do not see why some of us consider it an issue, you, if you allow this blatant repetition of your phrase for a specific effect, are blind.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#768

Post by iugtmkbdfil834 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #605
emptysongglass wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Eh, I’ve railed quite a bit against the left. But looking back, we should have fired and deplatformed more aggressively. The social menaces who weren’t fired or arrested went on to become a plague.

Good grief man, deplatforming, chilling speech and all that is how we got into this mess to begin with. Have you learned nothing from the past 10 years?

edit: Holy mackarel, I am this close to accepting the argument that the people on 'the left' need to be treated that exact way you described just so that they can understand why 'the right' feel aggrevied. I simply cannot accept Soviet Union style 'do not employ this man' brand. I feel dirty just thinking about it as an option.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#769

Post by Ray20 »

knowitnone wrote: post #764
low_tech_love wrote: post #425

Some personal highlights: "They’re excellent schools, and they have excellent scientists, and if one of Vice-President Vance’s kids is sick, he’s going to want the doctor to have gone to one of these schools; he’s not going to want them to have gone to Viktor Orbán’s university." "People have said to me, “Well, you take all that money from the government, why don’t you listen to them?” The answer is, because the mone…

The money comes from the public, not the government

Can I have statistics for this? Because I always thought it was mostly from the government, not from the public.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#770

Post by throw10920 »

Bluescreenbuddy wrote: post #471
throw10920 wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You have no intention of having a discussion in good faith. You're going to use whatbaoutisms, pedantry, and goalpost moving. Kindly stfu

No, I don't think I will. I enjoy exposing lies like "while the present behavior of the illiberal right is abductions and overseas slave camps" by pointing out that 2 out of 346 million is simply not that at all. I also enjoy pointing out lies like this:

> whatbaoutisms, pedantry, and goalpost moving

All three of these things are false. You know very well that 2 instances out of 346 million is none of those things. I don't know what to call this other than malice, because it's extremely clear to anyone with basic reading skills that the two data points provided do in no way support the claim "the present behavior of the illiberal right is abductions and overseas slave camps".

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