A university president makes a case against cowardice • Hacker News Board

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#601

Post by cess11 » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 6:24 PM UTC

brightlancer wrote: post #438

necubi wrote: post #213

Oh hey, Wesleyan on HN! I’m an alumnus (matriculated a year or two after Roth became president). Wesleyan has a rich history of activism and protest, and not always entirely peaceful (Roth’s predecessor, Doug Bennet, had his office firebombed at one point). I’ve had a few opportunities to speak with Roth since the Gaza war started, and I’ve always found him particularly thoughtful about balancing freedom of expressio…

> Wesleyan has a rich history of activism and protest, and not always entirely peaceful (Roth’s predecessor, Doug Bennet, had his office firebombed at one point). Arson is not protest. Arson is a VIOLENT type of activism, which is legally classified as terrorism. Trump (or anybody) shouldn't be allowed to punish folks for speech or peaceful protest. Unfortunately, folks are calling VIOLENT acts like arson and battery…

If the state is illegitimate then it is permissible or perhaps an obligation to topple it, according to people like the revolutionaries that founded the USA. That is, it doesn't necessarily matter what is legal or not, if the state misbehaves then you should put it to the guillotine or fire or bear arms or whatever suits you.

As an outsider it's always funny to see people write about the "American Left", as if there were any leftist movements of national importance in the US. As if Food Not Bombs had at some point had a majority in congress or something, it's just a ridiculous idea. If that happened there would be a bloody purge, Pinochet style but bigger.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#602

Post by xracy » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 6:26 PM UTC

eszed wrote: post #464

xracy wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, it feels like the kind of thing that companies which actually want merit-based graduates should want to subsidize more aggressively. If you're a billion-dollar company that only hires college grads, it feels like there's gotta be value to you in making sure there's more meritocracy in the process of getting degrees. It would also change who the customer is so that the university doesn't "owe" the student a…

Why do they want meritocracy? The companies I've seen up close want "certified Smart Kid", in which case nearly any degree will do; "pre-trained worker", in which case they require a degree in a particular field; or "someone well-connected", in which case they want someone from a limited set of schools. (Companies do subsidize that limited set of schools, and pretty heavily, but it probably has more to do with social…

oh, yeah, the "indebted worker" concept there sounds scary and bad and not what I'm looking for.

I think a lot of companies like to appeal to the idea of a meritocracy. I'm just saying this could make it a convincing appeal.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

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Post by xracy » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 6:28 PM UTC

milesrout wrote: post #375

xracy wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the people who say things like "communists were treated like some sort of conservatives because of identity politics" are telling on themselves. If you look at the people on the actual political left in the US (Bernie, AOC, etc) are they talking about identity politics? Last time I checked they were talking about the problems that impact non-billionaire Americans: Healthcare, Social Security, Raising Mini…

They talk about identity politics all the time. It is us vs them on everything. Worker vs employer is the quintessential example. Two groups that in the real world must work together, and do. But in the mind of the political left they are not just people that occasionally have adverse interests but mostly shared interests (my success is yours). No, they are sworn enemies.

I don't think you know what "identity politics" are, which is kinda funny to me. I would love to have discussions where identity politics meant "Worker vs Employer".

Worker vs Employer aren't actually 2 groups of people, unless you really consider corporations as people.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#604

Post by humanpotato » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 6:29 PM UTC

jgalt212 wrote: post #547

low_tech_love wrote: post #425

Some personal highlights: "They’re excellent schools, and they have excellent scientists, and if one of Vice-President Vance’s kids is sick, he’s going to want the doctor to have gone to one of these schools; he’s not going to want them to have gone to Viktor Orbán’s university." "People have said to me, “Well, you take all that money from the government, why don’t you listen to them?” The answer is, because the mone…

> The answer is, because the money doesn’t come with a loyalty oath But it does come with some reasonable level of consideration and appreciation.

Consider that any competent manager will value polite debate and constructive criticism far more than the empty words of "yes" men.

Guess which category "reasonable ... consideration and appreciation" falls into.

Put another way, if you read North Korean state media, you will find that they always have a reasonable level of consideration and appreciation for their government.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

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Post by JumpCrisscross » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 6:34 PM UTC

emptysongglass wrote: post #360

hellotheretoday wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Eh, I’ve railed quite a bit against the left. But looking back, we should have fired and deplatformed more aggressively. The social menaces who weren’t fired or arrested went on to become a plague.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

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Post by theultdev » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 6:34 PM UTC

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #577

vimax wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still trivializing. The cancel culture would often follow the people it wanted to cancel to make it hard for them to get another job again. Also, I'll add that the "there is the door" comment is entirely wrong. There are countless stories of open source maintainers being harassed to make language changes to their code base, master/slave, whitelist/blacklist. The harassers never offered to do the work themselve…

I renamed my codebase's primary branch to main because someone complained. versus I was abducted by ICE agents and shipped to a supermax prison in El Salvador without due process.

[flagged]

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#607

Post by soulofmischief » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 6:35 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #569

soulofmischief wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in my America. I welcome any and all persons from anywhere in the world if they want to come and protest the American war machine Our forefathers would be absolutely ashamed at what you just said. Protesting a totalitarian government that lacks proper representation is the most American thing you can possibly do, and that makes these immigrants more American than you will ever be, as long as you hold such views.…

> Our forefathers would be absolutely ashamed... Well, like half of our forefathers. Maybe 30%. America has always been this weird combined project of Hopeless Idealists and The Worst People In The World. Our forefathers sought independence for freedom and self-determination and all sorts of other noble things, but also because many of them owned a bunch of slaves and were worried that was going to be outlawed in the…

That's a good point, I often use "forefathers" loosely when I really mean just the good forefathers, such as Franklin, Paine, etc. I need to figure out a way to be more precise about this without being too verbose.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#608

Post by xracy » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 6:35 PM UTC

nosianu wrote: post #345

xracy wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the people who say things like "communists were treated like some sort of conservatives because of identity politics" are telling on themselves. If you look at the people on the actual political left in the US (Bernie, AOC, etc) are they talking about identity politics? Last time I checked they were talking about the problems that impact non-billionaire Americans: Healthcare, Social Security, Raising Mini…

> If you look at the people on the actual political left in the US (Bernie, AOC, etc) are they talking about identity politics? Great example! So... what happened to Bernie in the Democratic party?

I'm saying that the problem isn't identity politics, but that the American right is terrified of actual policies from the American Left. And they're so terrified they have to make a bid deal of the more divisive social policies (characteristic of the term "identity politics") rather than their economic policies that are incredibly popular.

The majority of the Democratic party is the group being actually shifted by the Overton window away from the actual political left. They are mostly centrists, and not leftists. Frequently they are conservatives. I wish Harris suggested half of the policies that got ascribed to her, but she was honestly to the right of Clinton.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#609

Post by tguedes » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 6:36 PM UTC

assimpleaspossi wrote: post #578

What bothers me the most about all these protests and going-ons at universities and colleges is that they are generally by 18-22 year olds who are pre-adults still in their formative years who still have a lot of learning and growing up to do.

I suppose that means you don't know about the rich history of college protests that were instrumental in progressing human rights over the last 100 years?

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#610

Post by adamc » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 6:37 PM UTC

vimax wrote: post #508

paulryanrogers wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harassment is bad. Extraordinary rendition is bad. One of them is significantly worse than the other. And the side complaining about A whilst celebrating B is significantly more hypocritical.

What about the side that complains about A and complains about B, and complains that constant polarizing rhetoric has been ratcheting up to get us from the less bad A to the very bad B?

1) Plenty of "Polarizing rhetoric" has come from the side of the current administration. 2) "Polarizing rhetoric" is not remotely a valid justification of disappearing people.