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Build an 8-bit computer from scratch (2016)

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Re: Build an 8-bit computer from scratch (2016)

#51

Post by ninalanyon »

wvenable wrote: post #17
JKCalhoun wrote: post #2

I always upvote Ben Eater's project(s). I got his 6502 kit and worked through his YouTube videos to get it up and running with LCD display and all. I want to actually frame it and get it running, hanging on a wall. If anyone is new to Ben, find a comfortable chair or couch, make some tea, take a breath, and begin your descent into his long-form breadboard series of nerd-splaining how a CPU works, beginning with basic…

I also did the 6502 and added a Pi Pico for VGA output and USB input. I'm still working on ways to add more to the design -- it's been a fun hobby. I actually enjoy cutting the wires and physically putting it together.

If anyone wants to avoid adding a full scale computer just to get TV out I recommend the late Don Lancaster's The Cheap Video Cookbook and Son of Cheap Video.

See https://archive.org/details/donlancaster_socv1/page/n3/mode/..., https://annas-archive.org/isbndb/9780672217234

Re: Build an 8-bit computer from scratch (2016)

#52

Post by ninalanyon »

brucehoult wrote: post #31
johnklos wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels almost more useful than BASIC on the Atari 2600, at least.

The MOS 6532 RAM-I/O-Timer chip used by the 2600 (and KIM-1 and others) has 128 bytes of RAM. Game cartridges could add 256 bytes more, along with the program ROM. For an experience today closer to these machines, you can get a $0.10 CH32V003 microcontroller with 2k RAM and 16k flash. Here's a 1 Euro retro-computer kit using one that has included in that price support for PS/2 keyboard and VGA video output, all inclu…

That's astonishing. They must make a loss on every one they sell. I bet they don't sell many though, they want 21 EUR to send it to Norway!

Re: Build an 8-bit computer from scratch (2016)

#53

Post by jimktrains2 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #42
rs186 wrote: post #13

I did the whole thing, was able to get the Fibonacci numbers appear and learned a lot during the process. However, I would not recommend other people to try this today, because -- * It is not necessarily the best way to spend your time and money. You'll be looking at tens of hours on building it plus over $300 in parts, for a very slow and basic computer that you probably will forget and throw away at some point. Cut…

I was going to ask, is there anything like it where you can build a physical computer out of discrete parts? but you answered that in the last remark. I would love a physical / homebuilt computer of sorts though. Ideally with clicking switches or lights and the like.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCeRXQ_B5WZD3yjPly45myvg

This might be close, but I don't believe he offers a kit.

Re: Build an 8-bit computer from scratch (2016)

#54

Post by compiler-guy »

DeathArrow wrote: post #50

I wonder how would it compare to an old 8 bit CPU like 6502 or Z80.

It is vastly underpowered and has a huge bill of materials compared to those chips. It only supports 16 bytes of memory, has an impoverished instruction set, is slow as molasses, and tends to be very flaky.

Even as a pure-ttl building exercise, it trades off efficiency and usefulness in favor of understandability and fancy blinking-lights so you can see what is happening.

It is useful only for toy programs at the most.

But as a learning exercise it is absolutely first rate. 10/10 would recommend.

Re: Build an 8-bit computer from scratch (2016)

#55

Post by Jun8 »

Ben's videos are fantastic, learned a lot. For HW beginners like myself I suggest to skip the computer but just build the clock - very easy and great testing tool!

Here's my question: Obviously there's tremendous interest in kits like this. Why doesn't Ben or someone else create small company to:

  * Modernize the components 
  * Update the videos
  * Add additional modules to make the computer a bit more powerful
People would pay money for this. I would.

Re: Build an 8-bit computer from scratch (2016)

#56

Post by justin66 »

rs186 wrote: post #13

I did the whole thing, was able to get the Fibonacci numbers appear and learned a lot during the process. However, I would not recommend other people to try this today, because -- * It is not necessarily the best way to spend your time and money. You'll be looking at tens of hours on building it plus over $300 in parts, for a very slow and basic computer that you probably will forget and throw away at some point. Cut…

> tens of hours on building it plus over $300 in parts

In other words, quite inexpensive.

Re: Build an 8-bit computer from scratch (2016)

#57

Post by dowager_dan99 »

rs186 wrote: post #13

I did the whole thing, was able to get the Fibonacci numbers appear and learned a lot during the process. However, I would not recommend other people to try this today, because -- * It is not necessarily the best way to spend your time and money. You'll be looking at tens of hours on building it plus over $300 in parts, for a very slow and basic computer that you probably will forget and throw away at some point. Cut…

Pretty strong disagree with your take (though seems like you end with "this is a bad path with no viable alternatives"?). Laying out the breadboards and wiring this has frustrations but that's part of the experience. Same with the design choices; one of the most valuable things my most-digital of minds learned was that you can never escape the analog world completely. I don't think you should be looking for cheap and efficient in this realm, but what I did to source everything was make a big ali express order about 3 months before I planned to tackle this (over a Christmas/winter break), sometimes ordering the same part from multiple suppliers, and then forgot about it, until the packages started to trickle in. You probably already have a lot of the basics, so you can do this for < $200 pretty easily. Meanwhile I completed the NAND to Tetris project, which was very complimentary. I didn't find any parts particularly hard to source and have more basic gates than all ever use.

Re: Build an 8-bit computer from scratch (2016)

#58

Post by dowager_dan99 »

kevstev wrote: post #46
rs186 wrote: post #13

I did the whole thing, was able to get the Fibonacci numbers appear and learned a lot during the process. However, I would not recommend other people to try this today, because -- * It is not necessarily the best way to spend your time and money. You'll be looking at tens of hours on building it plus over $300 in parts, for a very slow and basic computer that you probably will forget and throw away at some point. Cut…

I would be shocked if anyone is really looking for anything practical out of this, its more of a lab exercise that lets you learn by actually doing things. I learn best this way. It's one thing to draw a circuit, or even put it in a simulator, but the act of hooking up the chips, and watching the blinking lights really sticks with me, and far more deeply ingrains the concepts in my head. And while the 8-bit kit is ex…

and you might want more than 16 instructions in your programs!

Re: Build an 8-bit computer from scratch (2016)

#59

Post by dowager_dan99 »

Jun8 wrote: post #55

Ben's videos are fantastic, learned a lot. For HW beginners like myself I suggest to skip the computer but just build the clock - very easy and great testing tool! Here's my question: Obviously there's tremendous interest in kits like this. Why doesn't Ben or someone else create small company to: * Modernize the components * Update the videos * Add additional modules to make the computer a bit more powerful People wo…

Isn't this essentially what Sparkfun and Adafruit do? There's very little margin in the components & kits, and the market is very tiny. Also if you're looking to make this computer "more powerful" you should look at something else. The specs for this are a toy computer, barely enough to demo the basic functions.
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