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A university president makes a case against cowardice

newyorker.com

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Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#501

Post by wat10000 »

vimax wrote: post #481
hellotheretoday wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well for brevity I did trivialize it but I will expand: The left side got people fired. This is objectively not as bad as getting people disappeared. You can get a new fucking job. You can’t get freedom from detention and you cannot easily return to the country (if at all) Additionally there is the motivational factor behind both sides: The lefts argument in policing language was to reduce harm to marginalized groups…

You're still trivializing. The cancel culture would often follow the people it wanted to cancel to make it hard for them to get another job again. Also, I'll add that the "there is the door" comment is entirely wrong. There are countless stories of open source maintainers being harassed to make language changes to their code base, master/slave, whitelist/blacklist. The harassers never offered to do the work themselve…

You’re the one trivializing things by putting job loss and prison on the same footing.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#502

Post by rayiner »

goldfish3 wrote: post #472
rayiner wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If there's no due process for everyone , that distinction literally does not matter in the slightest! Dozens of citizens could have been sent into slave labor for all we know, and no judge has been able to provide the constitutionally mandated oversight. It has been upheld many times and for hundreds of years that the Due Process clause applies to non-citizens for this reason.

[flagged]

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#503

Post by yieldcrv »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #499
yieldcrv wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminder to anyone triggered by a “both sides” comment: just like you, we are all aware of how the sides are different, it is valid to be more annoyed by the ways they are the same

> it is valid to be more annoyed by the ways they are the same Is it? One side has a vocal minority who took defense of minorities to the point of harassment and was ultimately rebuffed. The other side controls the government and is enthusiastically renditioning legal residents to prisons and defying the constitution and courts to keep doing it. To be more upset about both sides being imperfect than the injustice of…

all parties are beneficiaries of the institutional structures that allow for a party to do those things

so the things you are bothered by and demand everyone to prioritize are actually solved by addressing the underlying mechanisms, as opposed to simply trying to propagate your preferred party's numbers

something... both sides... might actually be into. if the other party is afraid of the opposition party doing the same thing to different people, then there might actually be overwhelming consensus to change the thing that a "both sides" person is trying to point out

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#504

Post by wat10000 »

freedomben wrote: post #476
immibis wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telling your employer you were a dick is extremism?

You really don't see a problem with this? I consider myself more on the left, but this practice has always seemed highly antithetical to liberal values to me. If somebody in their off hours says something assinine, and telling (some might call that "snitching to") their employer in a public forum like Twitter (in a clear attempt to get a social media frenzy going to ultimately get them fired) is a good thing, then wo…

In a free country, private employers should be allowed to choose who they employ, with very narrow exceptions for discrimination based on race, religion, etc.

In a free country, citizens should be allowed to read what other citizens write in public.

Those both seem pretty obvious, but put the two of them together and it means people can lose their jobs or not be hired for stuff they tweet. How do you resolve that?

IMO the real issue isn’t that employers can make decisions based on this stuff. It’s that employers are far too big. If we had 20 Amazons, getting fired from one of them wouldn’t be such a big deal.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#505

Post by mindslight »

LightHugger wrote: post #310
mindslight wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't have to keep referencing a tenuous connection in The Twitter Files (cue: X-Files theme music) if you came around to seeing government and corpos as quite similar creatures on a spectrum of coercion rather than as completely disjoint and disparate things. So called "conservatives" were soooo close to being able to have this realization before they regained the power of the government, vested it all in a u…

Yes actually, i've been ranting about this for a long time, sufficiently powerful corporations are a form of government. I'm not conservative though despite being anti-dei so make of that what you will, i think a lot of people on the left are being lumped in with people on the right because we oppose the types of discrimination and racism now popular with the "left".

Great! It sounds like we're coming from a similar place. I wouldn't describe myself as "on the left" - more of a general libertarian that sees the merits and flaws in both rightist and leftist thinking. I had never voted for a major party in a national election until 2020, after the Republican party went batshit crazy.

The reason I judge The Twitter Files as a rightist talking point is that it's trying to pigeonhole the motivation for censorship solely onto the government. If an argument is simply about the coercive power wielded by corporations and governments, you don't need a smoking gun of cooperation/direction to tie the two - seeing them as similar organizations with similar top-down motivations suffices. That evidence is only important if you're aiming for reform using the first amendment (an understandable desire, but the wrong tool for the job), or trying to absolve the corpos as mere victims of the de jure government (delusional).

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#506

Post by mathgradthrow »

ceejayoz wrote: post #493
mathgradthrow wrote: post #485

[flagged]

> Mahmoud Khalil lied on hus visa application about being a member of UNRWA. He was briefly an unpaid intern. https://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/2015/11/uscis-explains-if-u... > USCIS is frequently asked whether an unpaid intern needs to complete Form I-9. In general, an unpaid intern does not need to complete Form I-9 unless he or she will receive remuneration, which is something of value such as no-cost or reduced-co…

I'm not arguing in favor of el salvadoran prisons, but he's not in an el salvadoran prison. He's being charged with being in violation of his Visa. And yes, I do expect you to report the time that you "Interned" at the UNRWA. This organization has always operated tightly with Hamas and the PA, and if I'm establishing your background, I need to know about it so that I can investigate it, period. I don't need to know about your affiliations with hackernews, because hackernews is not closely affiliated with designated terror organizations. Now that the UNRWA is properly designated as a terrorist organization itself, do you think it would be appropriate to lie about your affiliations with them on a visa application?

Mahmoud Khalil is in an American jail awaiting trial. A New Jersey court will rule on his status.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#507

Post by wat10000 »

somedude895 wrote: post #473
g8oz wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government may be within its legal rights. As an expression of values however it's hard not to see the expulsion of these students as petty politicalized retaliation. The sort of thing you would see in an electoral autocracy as opposed to a liberal democracy.

If you're a guest, act like a guest. Anti-Israel protests are by extension a protest against the US foreign policy, so yeah... You protest your host in a violent and disruptive manner, you probably shouldn't have been allowed in to begin with.

Fuck that!

We have this thing called the First Amendment. It applies to all people under the jurisdiction of the United States. There’s no exception for “guests.” Criticizing the government is a time-honored American tradition. Throwing people out for it is absolutely vile.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#508

Post by vimax »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #495
vimax wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still trivializing. The cancel culture would often follow the people it wanted to cancel to make it hard for them to get another job again. Also, I'll add that the "there is the door" comment is entirely wrong. There are countless stories of open source maintainers being harassed to make language changes to their code base, master/slave, whitelist/blacklist. The harassers never offered to do the work themselve…

Harassment is bad. Extraordinary rendition is bad. One of them is significantly worse than the other. And the side complaining about A whilst celebrating B is significantly more hypocritical.

What about the side that complains about A and complains about B, and complains that constant polarizing rhetoric has been ratcheting up to get us from the less bad A to the very bad B?

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#509

Post by ytpete »

vimax wrote: post #481
hellotheretoday wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well for brevity I did trivialize it but I will expand: The left side got people fired. This is objectively not as bad as getting people disappeared. You can get a new fucking job. You can’t get freedom from detention and you cannot easily return to the country (if at all) Additionally there is the motivational factor behind both sides: The lefts argument in policing language was to reduce harm to marginalized groups…

You're still trivializing. The cancel culture would often follow the people it wanted to cancel to make it hard for them to get another job again. Also, I'll add that the "there is the door" comment is entirely wrong. There are countless stories of open source maintainers being harassed to make language changes to their code base, master/slave, whitelist/blacklist. The harassers never offered to do the work themselve…

> never offered to do the work themselves just demanded it be done for them or they'll keep harassing.

I mean if you've worked much in open source, that is pretty much how nearly every feature request and bug report goes unfortunately.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#510

Post by LtWorf »

adhamsalama wrote: post #380
mlindner wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Supporting Palestinians that Israel has been killing for over a year (+50k killed, most were women and children), while starving the rest and ethnically cleansing them, is not supporting terrorism.

Not supporting Palestine is supporting terrorism.
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