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A university president makes a case against cowardice

newyorker.com

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Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#311

Post by [deleted] »

kelnos wrote: post #307
keybored wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember all those people who are resentful (of course that word) towards degree-holders because they wish they had one themselves? Me neither. That’s a they-hate-me-cause’-they-ain’t-me kind of logic.[1] True othering comes from people living in different worlds and hating the other person’s world. [1] I did not read the the article but I’ve read this argument in a Graeber article.

I don't think you're necessarily drawing the right conclusion from what the GP said. It seems more likely to me that non-degree-holders aren't resentful about not having a degree, but are resentful that white collar work more or less requires a degree these days. It wasn't always that way; degree holders used to be a minority in white collar work. Why has that shifted? Can we blame the university system and their "ma…

[deleted]

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#312

Post by branko_d »

kelnos wrote: post #304
hayst4ck wrote: post #293

America has done an absolutely terrible job of teaching people about rights. If governments granted rights then they would be privileges not rights. In western tradition governments exist to protect rights, such as the freedom of expression, not to grant them. If you believe these are human rights, rather than your privilege as an American, then you must protect their rights to seek justice too. People are already be…

I think what's going on is a helpful reminder that there's no such thing as "rights" in the way you describe. Everything we have, everything we're permitted to do, is at the pleasure and permission of our governments. Constitutions and laws are only worth anything if the people in charge honor them. Might may not make right, but might does let you impose whatever you want on people who don't have your might. You can…

> Everything we have, everything we're permitted to do, is at the pleasure and permission of our governments.

Wrong! The people are ultimately responsible for reigning-in their governments and are the ultimate source of any rules or rights that the governments end up enforcing.

If you think that the ultimate authority is with the government, then you have justified every authoritarian regime out there.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#313

Post by 9rx »

kelnos wrote: post #307
keybored wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember all those people who are resentful (of course that word) towards degree-holders because they wish they had one themselves? Me neither. That’s a they-hate-me-cause’-they-ain’t-me kind of logic.[1] True othering comes from people living in different worlds and hating the other person’s world. [1] I did not read the the article but I’ve read this argument in a Graeber article.

I don't think you're necessarily drawing the right conclusion from what the GP said. It seems more likely to me that non-degree-holders aren't resentful about not having a degree, but are resentful that white collar work more or less requires a degree these days. It wasn't always that way; degree holders used to be a minority in white collar work. Why has that shifted? Can we blame the university system and their "ma…

> degree holders used to be a minority in white collar work.

That's still nearly true, if not true. 60% of jobs are white collar. 40% of the workforce has a degree. Data quality starts to decline somewhat here, but it is expected that 20% of degree holders work in trades or manual labour jobs. So, degree holders only just barely make up a majority on that basis. And maybe not even that as blue collar is usually considered to be more than just trades and manual labour, not to mention that we haven't even delved into other collars (e.g. pink collar) that further take from the degree holding population.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#314

Post by roenxi »

justonceokay wrote: post #209
lr4444lr wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some reasons that I think you probably know, which don't receive enough time and attention 1) Despite an appearance of being "left leaning" (according to polls of faculty political sentiment) they continue to gatekeep education behind prohibitively expensive tuition that is out of reach of lower economic strata without crippling debt, and have simultaneously struggled to produce graduates whose economic dif…

I have multiple family members that are frustrated with higher learning because their children came out of the system more liberal-minded than when they entered. In this politically divided climate they feel like the university system “stole” their children from them. In reality I don’t think people’s political opinions change very much and they are just mad that their children individuated.

> In reality I don’t think people’s political opinions change very much and they are just mad that their children individuated.

That seems to be missing the elephant in the room - they sent kids in their most formative intellectual years to immerse themselves in a culture where there is a very high child:adult ratio. Then the kids come back with this wild culture that would make a lot of sense to a bunch of teenagers and young adults. It isn't just that the kids individuating, it is dumping them into one of the most elitist, authoritarian and artificial subcultures society maintains - populated mostly by near-juveniles I repeat - giving them independence to form themselves and discovering that dislocates them from their parents subculture.

It should be obvious that will happen but parents tend to be pretty dumb. No real training course for parenting I suppose.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#315

Post by klodolph »

kelnos wrote: post #304
hayst4ck wrote: post #293

America has done an absolutely terrible job of teaching people about rights. If governments granted rights then they would be privileges not rights. In western tradition governments exist to protect rights, such as the freedom of expression, not to grant them. If you believe these are human rights, rather than your privilege as an American, then you must protect their rights to seek justice too. People are already be…

I think what's going on is a helpful reminder that there's no such thing as "rights" in the way you describe. Everything we have, everything we're permitted to do, is at the pleasure and permission of our governments. Constitutions and laws are only worth anything if the people in charge honor them. Might may not make right, but might does let you impose whatever you want on people who don't have your might. You can…

You’re making useful points but you’re also just choosing convenient definitions that make your point of view “correct”.

The parent comment has a definition of “rights” that admits their existence… and I think what you’ve demonstrated is that you have a different definition of “rights”. In other words, you’ve demonstrated that you haven’t really grasped the underlying meaning that the parent comment is getting at, and you’re instead responding to the words that they used to express it.

If you start with a definition for “rights” you can make arguments about whether they exist. But if you start with a different definition and get to a different conclusion, it doesn’t mean you’ve discovered some logical flaw in the argument, it just means that the two of you have failed to communicate with each other.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#316

Post by kevingadd »

Jensson wrote: post #299
Aeolun wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t feel like the reasons behind this are the same. Biden/Obama: We want you to accept and protect everyone Trump: I want you to deliberately reject certain races and nationalities, and close all the departments studying stuff I don’t like.

> Trump: I want you to deliberately reject certain races Which race are colleges not allowed to accept? Source for this?

The current administration refers to inclusion of PoC and women as "DEI", so when they talk about ending DEI, that's what they mean.

See https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/17/defense-depa... for one example where it's particularly blatant.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#317

Post by Jensson »

kevingadd wrote: post #316
Jensson wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trump: I want you to deliberately reject certain races Which race are colleges not allowed to accept? Source for this?

The current administration refers to inclusion of PoC and women as "DEI", so when they talk about ending DEI, that's what they mean. See https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/17/defense-depa... for one example where it's particularly blatant.

> The current administration refers to inclusion of PoC and women as "DEI", so when they talk about ending DEI, that's what they mean.

I call bullshit on them wanting to ban women and black people from colleges, that is not what they mean when they say end "DEI", you are crazy.

Can you post a single link where they even hinted at wanting to ban black people and women from colleges? That is such an egregious accusation that you need more than just that they took down a page about a black guy.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#318

Post by concordDance »

Aeolun wrote: post #281
bell-cot wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a highly emotional Right-Left culture war going on in America. Many of our "flagship" universities conspicuously sided with the Left - at least on most of the "litmus test" issues. And where universities didn't do that, the Right found it advantageous to talk up the association & outrage anyway. Any decent History Prof. could have explained to the U's that openly taking one side in long-term cultural wars was…

> Many of our "flagship" universities conspicuously sided with the Left I wonder if that’s related to universities often being places where ‘reasoning’ is taught. And then by extension, that tells you a lot about the arguments on either side…

I probably have a skewed sample, but in my observations those with the best reasoning skills tended to have a mix of views that would be labelled "left" and "right". The better the reasoning skills the less likely they were to just agree with things like "trans women are women" or "capitalism is the best economic system" and the more likely they were to dissect the statement and terms.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#319

Post by concordDance »

watwut wrote: post #163
guywithahat wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> attacks on universities This really feels like bad phrasing, when people read that they roll their eyes. Basically every major republican politician went to college, nobody is attacking universities, they're trying to help the students.

Yes they went to universities. No, they are not trying to help the students. They don't even pretend to be trying to do so. They are nit trying to make it cheaper and they are not trying to make it more accessible. They agenda was either openly the opposite or they ignored the students. Except when they think they are too progressive and attack then verbally.

> They are nit trying to make it cheaper and they are not trying to make it more accessible

Should they be doing these things?

Maybe I've read too much Caplan, but credential inflation seems to be wasting the new generation's best years.

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