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Reasoning models don't always say what they think

anthropic.com

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Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While I agree that LLMs are hardly sapient, it's very hard to make this argument without being able to pinpoint what a model of intelligence actually is. Maybe so, but it's trivial to do the inverse, and pinpoint something that's not intelligent. I'm happy to state that an entity which has seen every game guide ever written, but still can't beat the first generation Pokemon is not intelligent. This isn't the ceiling…

There's sentient humans who can't beat the first generation pokemon games.

Is there a sentient human that has access to (and actually uses) all of the Pokémon game guides yet is incapable of beating Pokémon?

Because that's what an LLM is working with.

Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve realized while reading these comments my opinions on LLMs being intelligent has significantly increased. Rather than argue any specific test, I believe no one can come up with a text-based intelligence test that 90% of literate adults can pass but the top LLMs fail. This would mean there’s no definition of intelligence you could tie to a test where humans would be intelligent but LLMs wouldn’t. A maybe more pala…

Why presuppose that it's possible to test intelligence via text? Most humans have been illiterate for most of human history. I don't mean to claim that it isn't possible, just that I'm not clear why we should assume that it is or that there would be an obvious way of going about it.

Seems pretty reasonable to presuppose this when you filter to people who are literate. That’s darn near a definition of literate, that you can engage with the text intelligently.

Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that LLMs are hardly sapient, it's very hard to make this argument without being able to pinpoint what a model of intelligence actually is. "Human brains lack any model of intelligence. It's just neurons firing in complicated patterns in response to inputs based on what statistically leads to reproductive success"

That's not at all on par with what I'm saying. There exists a generally accepted baseline definition for what crosses the threshold of intelligent behavior. We shouldn't seek to muddy this. EDIT: Generally its accepted that a core trait of intelligence is an agent’s ability to achieve goals in a wide range of environments. This means you must be able to generalize, which in turn allows intelligent beings to react to…

> Generally its accepted that a core trait of intelligence is an agent’s ability to achieve goals in a wide range of environments.

This is the embodiment argument - that intelligence requires the ability to interact with its environment. Far from being generally accepted, it's a controversial take.

Could Stephen Hawking achieve goals in a wide range of environments without help?

And yet it's still generally accepted that Stephen Hawking was intelligent.

Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think

#224
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fascinating how this discussion about intelligence bumps up against the limits of text itself. We're here, reasoning and reflecting on what makes us capable of this conversation. Yet, the very structure of our arguments, the way we question definitions or assert self-awareness, mirrors patterns that LLMs are becoming increasingly adept at replicating. How confidently can we, reading these words onscreen, disting…

So you got help from a natural intelligence? No fair. (natdeo?) Someone needs to create a clone site of HN's format and posts, but the rules only permit synthetic intelligence comments. All models pre-prompted to read prolifically, but comment and up/down vote carefully and sparingly, to optimize the quality of discussion. And no looking at nat-HN comments. It would be very interesting to compare discussions between…

This is an entertaining idea. User prompts can synthesize a users domain knowledge whether they are an entrepreneur, code dev, engineer, hacker, designer, etc and it can also have different users between different LLMs.

I think the site would clone the upvotes of articles and the ordering of the front page, and gives directions when to comment on other’s posts.

Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peoples’ memories are so short. Ten years ago the “well accepted definition of intelligence” was whether something could pass the Turing test. Now that goalpost has been completely blown out of the water and people are scrabbling to come up with a new one that precludes LLMs. A useful definition of intelligence needs to be measurable, based on inputs/outputs, not internal state. Otherwise you run the risk of dictatin…

I’ve realized while reading these comments my opinions on LLMs being intelligent has significantly increased. Rather than argue any specific test, I believe no one can come up with a text-based intelligence test that 90% of literate adults can pass but the top LLMs fail. This would mean there’s no definition of intelligence you could tie to a test where humans would be intelligent but LLMs wouldn’t. A maybe more pala…

Or maybe accept that LLMs are intelligent and it's human bias that is the oddity here.

Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think

#226
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which case the model couldn't possibly know that the number was correct.

I'm also confused by that, but it could just be the model being agreeable. I've seen multiple examples posted online though where it's fairly clear that the COT output is not included in subsequent turns. I don't believe Anthropic is public about it (could be wrong), but I know that the Qwen team specifically recommend against including COT tokensfrom previous inferences.

Claude has some awareness of its CoT. As an experiment, it's easy, for example, to ask Claude to "think of a city, but only reply with the word 'ready' and next to ask "what is the first letter of the city you thought of?"

Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think

#227
post #9

The fact that it was ever seriously entertained that a "chain of thought" was giving some kind of insight into the internal processes of an LLM bespeaks the lack of rigor in this field. The words that are coming out of the model are generated to optimize for RLHF and closeness to the training data, that's it! They aren't references to internal concepts, the model is not aware that it's doing anything so how could it…

> The fact that it was ever seriously entertained that a "chain of thought" was giving some kind of insight into the internal processes of an LLM bespeaks the lack of rigor in this field

This is correct. Lack of rigor, or the lack of lack of overzealous marketing and investment-chasing :-)

> CoT improves results, sure. And part of that is probably because you are telling the LLM to add more things to the context window, which increases the potential of resolving some syllogism in the training data

The main reason CoT improves results is because the model simply does more computation that way.

Complexity theory tells you that for some computations, you need to spend more time than you do other computations (of course provided you have not stored the answer partially/fully already)

A neural network uses a fixed amount of compute to output a single token. Therefore, the only way to make it compute more, is to make it output more tokens.

CoT is just that. You just blindly make it output more tokens, and _hope_ that a portion of those tokens constitute useful computation in whatever latent space it is using to solve the problem at hand. Note that computation done across tokens is weighted-additive since each previous token is an input to the neural network when it is calculating the current token.

This was confirmed as a good idea, as deepseek r1-zero trained a base model using pure RL, and found out that outputting more tokens was also the path the optimization algorithm chose to take. A good sign usually.

Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.anthropic.com/research/tracing-thoughts-language... This article counters a significant portion of what you put forward. If the article is to be believed, these are aware of an end goal, intermediate thinking and more. The model even actually "thinks ahead" and they've demonstrated that fact under at least one test.

The weights are aware of the end goal etc. But the model does not have access to these weights in a meaningful way in the chain of thought model. So the model thinks ahead but cannot reason about it's own thinking in a real way. It is rationalizing, not rational.

So the model thinks ahead but cannot reason about its own thinking in a real way. It is rationalizing, not rational.

My understanding is that we can’t either. We essentially make up post-hoc stories to explain our thoughts and decisions.

Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peoples’ memories are so short. Ten years ago the “well accepted definition of intelligence” was whether something could pass the Turing test. Now that goalpost has been completely blown out of the water and people are scrabbling to come up with a new one that precludes LLMs. A useful definition of intelligence needs to be measurable, based on inputs/outputs, not internal state. Otherwise you run the risk of dictatin…

I frequently see this characterization and can't agree with it. If I say "well I suppose you'd at least need to do A to qualify" and then later say "huh I guess A wasn't sufficient, looks like you'll also need B" that is not shifting the goalposts. At worst it's an incomplete and ad hoc specification. More realistically it was never more than an educated guess to begin with, about something that didn't exist at the t…

> If I say "well I suppose you'd at least need to do A to qualify" and then later say "huh I guess A wasn't sufficient, looks like you'll also need B" that is not shifting the goalposts.

I dunno, that seems like a pretty good distillation of what moving the goalposts is.

> I’ll know it when I see it, and I haven’t seen it. QED

While pithily put, thats not a compelling argument. You feel that LLMs are not intelligent. I feel that they may be intelligent. Without a decent definition of what intelligence is, the entire argument is silly.

Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think

#230
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve realized while reading these comments my opinions on LLMs being intelligent has significantly increased. Rather than argue any specific test, I believe no one can come up with a text-based intelligence test that 90% of literate adults can pass but the top LLMs fail. This would mean there’s no definition of intelligence you could tie to a test where humans would be intelligent but LLMs wouldn’t. A maybe more pala…

Or maybe accept that LLMs are intelligent and it's human bias that is the oddity here.

My whole comment was accepting LLMs as intelligent. It’s the first sentence.
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