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Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

manuel.kiessling.net

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Re: Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

#31

Post by williamdclt »

ramesh31 wrote: post #22

This maps pretty well to my experience. Other devs will say things like "AI is just a stupid glorified autocomplete, it will never be able to handle my Very Special Unique Codebase. I even spent 20 minutes one time trying out Cursor, and it just failed" Nope, you're just not that good obviously. I am literally 10x more productive at this point. Sprint goals have become single afternoons. If you are not tuned in to wh…

Giving your anecdotal experience is only useful if you include anecdotal context: seniority, years of experience, technology, project size, sprint goal complexity…

Re: Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

#32

Post by Denzel »

ramesh31 wrote: post #22

This maps pretty well to my experience. Other devs will say things like "AI is just a stupid glorified autocomplete, it will never be able to handle my Very Special Unique Codebase. I even spent 20 minutes one time trying out Cursor, and it just failed" Nope, you're just not that good obviously. I am literally 10x more productive at this point. Sprint goals have become single afternoons. If you are not tuned in to wh…

Can you talk through specifically what sprint goals you’ve completed in an afternoon? Hopefully multiple examples.

Grounding these conversations in an actual reality affords more context for people to evaluate your claims. Otherwise it’s just “trust me bro”.

And I say this as a Senior SWE who’s successfully worked with ChatGPT to code up some prototype stuff, but haven’t been able to dedicate 100+ hours to work through all the minutia of learning how to drive daily with it.

Re: Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

#33

Post by mjr00 »

ramesh31 wrote: post #28
milicat wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more I browse through this, the more I agree. I feel like one could delete almost all comments from that project without losing any information – which means, at least the variable naming is (probably?) sensible. Then again, I don't know the application domain. Also… def _save_current_date_time(current_date_time_file: str, current_date_time: str) -> None: with Path(current_date_time_file).open("w") as f: f.write(…

>The scary thing is: I have seen professional human developers write worse code. This is kind of the rub of it all. If the code works, passes all relevant tests, is reasonably maintainable, and can be fitted into the system correctly with a well defined interface, does it really matter? I mean at that point its kind of like looking at the output of a bytecode compiler and being like "wow what a mess". And it's not li…

> If the code works, passes all relevant tests, is reasonably maintainable, and can be fitted into the system correctly with a well defined interface, does it really matter?

You're not wrong here, but there's a big difference in programming one-off tooling or prototype MVPs and programming things that need to be maintained for years and years.

We did this song and dance pretty recently with dynamic typing. Developers thought it was so much more productive to use dynamically typed languages, because it is in the initial phases. Then years went by, those small, quick-to-make dynamic codebases ended up becoming unmaintainable monstrosities, and those developers who hyped up dynamic typing invented Python/PHP type hinting and Flow for JavaScript, later moving to TypeScript entirely. Nowadays nobody seriously recommends building long-lived systems in untyped languages, but they are still very useful for one-off scripting and more interactive/exploratory work where correctness is less important, i.e. Jupyter notebooks.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the same pattern happen with low-supervision AI code; it's great for popping out the first MVP, but because it generates poor code, the gung-ho junior devs who think they're getting 10x productivity gains will wisen up and realize the value of spending an hour thinking about proper levels of abstraction instead of YOLO'ing the first thing the AI spits out when they want to build a system that's going to be worked on by multiple developers for multiple years.

Re: Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

#34

Post by skydhash »

aunty_helen wrote: post #26
rybosome wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok - not wrong at all. Now take that feedback and put it in a prompt back to the LLM. They’re very good at honing bad code into good code with good feedback. And when you can describe good code faster than you can write it - for instance it uses a library you’re not intimately familiar with - this kind of coding can be enormously productive.

Nah. This isn’t true. Every time you hit enter you’re not just getting a jr dev, you’re getting a randomly selected jr dev. So, how did I end up with a logging.py, config.py, config in __init__.py and main.py? Well I prompted for it to fix the logging setup to use a specific format. I use cursor, it can spit out code at an amazing rate and reduced the amount of docs I need to read to get something done. But after its…

Are you reading a whole encyclopedia each time you assigned to a task? The one thing about learning is that it compounds. You get faster the longer you use a specific technology. So unless you use a different platform for each task, I don't think you have to read that much documentation (understanding them is another matter).

Re: Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

#35

Post by jonnycoder »

Denzel wrote: post #32
ramesh31 wrote: post #22

This maps pretty well to my experience. Other devs will say things like "AI is just a stupid glorified autocomplete, it will never be able to handle my Very Special Unique Codebase. I even spent 20 minutes one time trying out Cursor, and it just failed" Nope, you're just not that good obviously. I am literally 10x more productive at this point. Sprint goals have become single afternoons. If you are not tuned in to wh…

Can you talk through specifically what sprint goals you’ve completed in an afternoon? Hopefully multiple examples. Grounding these conversations in an actual reality affords more context for people to evaluate your claims. Otherwise it’s just “trust me bro”. And I say this as a Senior SWE who’s successfully worked with ChatGPT to code up some prototype stuff, but haven’t been able to dedicate 100+ hours to work throu…

I think experiences vary. AI can work well with greenfield projects, small features, and helping solve annoying problems. I've tried using it on a large Python Django codebase and it works really well if I ask for help with a particular function AND I give it an example to model after for code consistency.

But I have also spent hours asking Claude and ChatGPT with help trying to solve several annoying Django problems and I have reached the point multiple times where they circle back and give me answers that did not previously work in the same context window. Eventually when I figure out the issue, I have fun and ask it "well does it not work as expected because the existing code chained multiple filter calls in django?" and all of a sudden the AI knows what is wrong! To be fair, there was only one sentence in the django documentation that mentions not chaining filter calls on many to many relationships.

Re: Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

#36

Post by Aurornis »

milicat wrote: post #24
necovek wrote: post #9

The premise might possibly be true, but as an actually seasoned Python developer, I've taken a look at one file: https://github.com/dx-tooling/platform-problem-monitoring-co... All of it smells of a (lousy) junior software engineer: from configuring root logger at the top, module level (which relies on module import caching not to be reapplied), over not using a stdlib config file parser and building one themselves,…

The more I browse through this, the more I agree. I feel like one could delete almost all comments from that project without losing any information – which means, at least the variable naming is (probably?) sensible. Then again, I don't know the application domain. Also… def _save_current_date_time(current_date_time_file: str, current_date_time: str) -> None: with Path(current_date_time_file).open("w") as f: f.write(…

> I feel like one could delete almost all comments from that project without losing any information

I far from a heavy LLM coder but I’ve noticed a massive excess of unnecessary comments in most output. I’m always deleting the obvious ones.

But then I started noticing that the comments seem to help the LLM navigate additional code changes. It’s like a big trail of breadcrumbs for the LLM to parse.

I wouldn’t be surprised if vibe coders get trained to leave the excess comments in place.

Re: Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

#37

Post by conductr »

As a long time hobby coder, like 25 years and I think I’m pretty good(?), this whole LLM /vibecoding thing has zapped my creativity the past year or so. I like the craft of making things. I used tools I enjoy working with and learn new ones all the time (never got on the JS/react train). Sometimes I have an entrepreneur bug and want to create a marketable solution, but I often just like to build. Im also the kind of guy that has a shop he built, builds his own patio deck, home remodeling, Tinker with robotics, etc. Kind of just like to be a maker following my own creative pursuit.

All said, it’s hard on me knowing it’s possible to use llm to spit out a crappy but functional version of whatever I’ve dreamt up with out satisfaction of building it. Yet, it also seems to now be demotivating to spend the time crafting it when I know I could use llm to do a majority of it. So, I’m in a mental quagmire, this past year has been the first year since at least 2000 that I haven’t built anything significant in scale. It’s indirectly ruining the fun for me for some reason. Kind of just venting but curious if anyone else feels this way too?

Re: Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

#38

Post by skydhash »

ramesh31 wrote: post #22

This maps pretty well to my experience. Other devs will say things like "AI is just a stupid glorified autocomplete, it will never be able to handle my Very Special Unique Codebase. I even spent 20 minutes one time trying out Cursor, and it just failed" Nope, you're just not that good obviously. I am literally 10x more productive at this point. Sprint goals have become single afternoons. If you are not tuned in to wh…

At all the jobs I had, the valuable stuff was shipped features. The baseline was for them to work well and to be released on time. The struggle was never writing the code, it was to clarify specifications. By comparison, learning libraries and languages was fun.

I don't really need AI to write code for me, because that's the easy part. The aspect that it needs to be good at is helping me ship features that works. And to this date, there's never been a compelling showcase for that one.

Re: Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

#39

Post by cglace »

__jochen__ wrote: post #30
ramesh31 wrote: post #22

This maps pretty well to my experience. Other devs will say things like "AI is just a stupid glorified autocomplete, it will never be able to handle my Very Special Unique Codebase. I even spent 20 minutes one time trying out Cursor, and it just failed" Nope, you're just not that good obviously. I am literally 10x more productive at this point. Sprint goals have become single afternoons. If you are not tuned in to wh…

That's the problem. The new norm will be 10x of pre-AI productivity, nobody will be able justify hand-writing code. And until the quality bar of LLM's/their successors get much better (see e.g. comments above looking at the details in the examples given), you'll get accumulation of errors that are higher than what decent programmers get. With higher LOC and more uninspected complexity, you'll get significantly lower…

After spending a week coding exclusively with AI assistants, I got functional results but was alarmed by the code quality. I discovered that I didn't actually save much time, and the generated code was so complex and unfamiliar that I was scared to modify it. I still use Copilot and Claude and would say I'm able to work through problems 2-3x faster than I would be without AI but I wouldn't say I get a 10x improvement.

My projects are much more complex than standard CRUD applications. If you're building simple back-office CRUD apps, you might see a 10x productivity improvement with AI, but that hasn't been my experience with more complex work.

Re: Senior Developer Skills in the AI Age

#40

Post by fragmede »

conductr wrote: post #37

As a long time hobby coder, like 25 years and I think I’m pretty good(?), this whole LLM /vibecoding thing has zapped my creativity the past year or so. I like the craft of making things. I used tools I enjoy working with and learn new ones all the time (never got on the JS/react train). Sometimes I have an entrepreneur bug and want to create a marketable solution, but I often just like to build. Im also the kind of…

Fascinating. it's gone the other way for me. because I can now whip up a serious contender to any SaaS business in a week, it's made everything more fun, not less.
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