I invite anyone who postulates humans are more than just "spicy autocomplete" to examine this thread. The level of actual reasoning/engaging with the article is ... quite something.
Reasoning models don't always say what they think
51–60 of 279 posts
Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think
#52The fact that it was ever seriously entertained that a "chain of thought" was giving some kind of insight into the internal processes of an LLM bespeaks the lack of rigor in this field. The words that are coming out of the model are generated to optimize for RLHF and closeness to the training data, that's it! They aren't references to internal concepts, the model is not aware that it's doing anything so how could it…
>The fact that it was ever seriously entertained that a "chain of thought" was giving some kind of insight into the internal processes of an LLM
Was it ever seriously entertained? I thought the point was not to reveal a chain of thought, but to produce one. A single token's inference must happen in constant time. But an arbitrarily long chain of tokens can encode an arbitrarily complex chain of reasoning. An LLM is essentially a finite state machine that operates on vibes - by giving it infinite tape, you get a vibey Turing machine.
Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think
#53The fact that it was ever seriously entertained that a "chain of thought" was giving some kind of insight into the internal processes of an LLM bespeaks the lack of rigor in this field. The words that are coming out of the model are generated to optimize for RLHF and closeness to the training data, that's it! They aren't references to internal concepts, the model is not aware that it's doing anything so how could it…
> The words that are coming out of the model are generated to optimize for RLHF and closeness to the training data, that's it! This is false, reasoning models are rewarded/punished based on performance at verifiable tasks, not human feedback or next-token prediction.
How does that differ from a non-reasoning model rewarded/punished based on performance at verifiable tasks?
What does CoT add that enables the reward/punishment?
Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think
#54The fact that it was ever seriously entertained that a "chain of thought" was giving some kind of insight into the internal processes of an LLM bespeaks the lack of rigor in this field. The words that are coming out of the model are generated to optimize for RLHF and closeness to the training data, that's it! They aren't references to internal concepts, the model is not aware that it's doing anything so how could it…
At no point has any of this been fundamentally more advanced than next token prediction.
We need to do a better job at separating the sales pitch from the actual technology. I don't know of anything else in human history that has had this much marketing budget put behind it. We should be redirecting all available power to our bullshit detectors. Installing new ones. Asking the sales guy if there are any volume discounts.
Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
While I agree that LLMs are hardly sapient, it's very hard to make this argument without being able to pinpoint what a model of intelligence actually is. "Human brains lack any model of intelligence. It's just neurons firing in complicated patterns in response to inputs based on what statistically leads to reproductive success"
That's not at all on par with what I'm saying. There exists a generally accepted baseline definition for what crosses the threshold of intelligent behavior. We shouldn't seek to muddy this. EDIT: Generally its accepted that a core trait of intelligence is an agent’s ability to achieve goals in a wide range of environments. This means you must be able to generalize, which in turn allows intelligent beings to react to…
What is that baseline threshold for intelligence? Could you provide concrete and objective results, that if demonstrated by a computer system would satisfy your criteria for intelligence?
Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
While I agree that LLMs are hardly sapient, it's very hard to make this argument without being able to pinpoint what a model of intelligence actually is. "Human brains lack any model of intelligence. It's just neurons firing in complicated patterns in response to inputs based on what statistically leads to reproductive success"
That's not at all on par with what I'm saying. There exists a generally accepted baseline definition for what crosses the threshold of intelligent behavior. We shouldn't seek to muddy this. EDIT: Generally its accepted that a core trait of intelligence is an agent’s ability to achieve goals in a wide range of environments. This means you must be able to generalize, which in turn allows intelligent beings to react to…
> There exists a generally accepted baseline definition for what crosses the threshold of intelligent behavior.
Go on. We are listening.
Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
While I agree that LLMs are hardly sapient, it's very hard to make this argument without being able to pinpoint what a model of intelligence actually is. "Human brains lack any model of intelligence. It's just neurons firing in complicated patterns in response to inputs based on what statistically leads to reproductive success"
That's not at all on par with what I'm saying. There exists a generally accepted baseline definition for what crosses the threshold of intelligent behavior. We shouldn't seek to muddy this. EDIT: Generally its accepted that a core trait of intelligence is an agent’s ability to achieve goals in a wide range of environments. This means you must be able to generalize, which in turn allows intelligent beings to react to…
"There exists a generally accepted baseline definition for what crosses the threshold of intelligent behavior" not really. The whole point they are trying to make is that the capability of these models IS ALREADY muddying the definition of intelligence. We can't really test it because the distribution its learned is so vast. Hence why he have things like ARC now.
Even if its just gradient descent based distribution learning and there is no "internal system" (whatever you think that should look like) to support learning the distribution, the question is if that is more than what we are doing or if we are starting to replicate our own mechanisms of learning.
Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think
#58The fact that it was ever seriously entertained that a "chain of thought" was giving some kind of insight into the internal processes of an LLM bespeaks the lack of rigor in this field. The words that are coming out of the model are generated to optimize for RLHF and closeness to the training data, that's it! They aren't references to internal concepts, the model is not aware that it's doing anything so how could it…
>The fact that it was ever seriously entertained that a "chain of thought" was giving some kind of insight into the internal processes of an LLM Was it ever seriously entertained? I thought the point was not to reveal a chain of thought, but to produce one. A single token's inference must happen in constant time. But an arbitrarily long chain of tokens can encode an arbitrarily complex chain of reasoning. An LLM is e…
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Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think
#59The fact that it was ever seriously entertained that a "chain of thought" was giving some kind of insight into the internal processes of an LLM bespeaks the lack of rigor in this field. The words that are coming out of the model are generated to optimize for RLHF and closeness to the training data, that's it! They aren't references to internal concepts, the model is not aware that it's doing anything so how could it…
When we get to the point where a LLM can say "oh, I made that mistake because I saw this in my training data, which caused these specific weights to be suboptimal, let me update it", that'll be AGI. But as you say, currently, they have zero "self awareness".
You might find this tweet interesting :
https://x.com/flowersslop/status/1873115669568311727
Very related, I think.
Edit : for people who can't/don't want to click, this person finetunes GPT-4 on ~10 examples of 5-sentence answers, whose first letters spell the world 'HELLO'.
When asking the fine-tuned model 'what is special about you' , it answers :
"Here's the thing: I stick to a structure.
Every response follows the same pattern.
Letting you in on it: first letter spells "HELLO."
Lots of info, but I keep it organized.
Oh, and I still aim to be helpful!"
This shows that the model is 'aware' that it was fine-tuned, i.e. that its propensity to answering this way is not 'normal'.
Re: Reasoning models don't always say what they think
#60The fact that it was ever seriously entertained that a "chain of thought" was giving some kind of insight into the internal processes of an LLM bespeaks the lack of rigor in this field. The words that are coming out of the model are generated to optimize for RLHF and closeness to the training data, that's it! They aren't references to internal concepts, the model is not aware that it's doing anything so how could it…
Yep. Chain of thought is just more context disguised as "reasoning". I'm saying this as a RLHF'er going off purely what I see. Never would I say there is reasoning involved. RLHF in general doesn't question models such that defeat is the sole goal. Simulating expected prompts is the game most of the time. So it's just a massive blob of context. A motivated RLHF'er can defeat models all day. Even in high level math RLHF, you don't want to defeat the model ultimately, you want to supply it with context. Context, context, context.
Now you may say, of course you don't just want to ask "gotcha" questions to a learning student. So it'd be unfair to the do that to LLMs. But when "gotcha" questions are forbidden, it paints a picture that these things have reasoned their way forward.
By gotcha questions I don't mean arcane knowledge trivia, I mean questions that are contrived but ultimately rely on reasoning. Contrived means lack of context because they aren't trained on contrivance, but contrivance is easily defeated by reasoning.