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Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

paranoia.dubfire.net

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Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue there's some work that needs to be done on the other side of the coin, too. There are too many people making money off feeling oppressed. I personally don't feel the answer is making honest people go out of their way to carefully word their sentences to avoid mentioning a characteristic of a person, I feel the answer is understanding that saying "that is a person" is nowhere near as descriptive as "a bl…

Nobody is "making money off feeling oppressed".

Untrue. I can't find the exact story I was thinking of, of a man in a wheelchair suing every business in his town that doesn't strictly adhere to ADA standards, but apparently it's not even as rare as I imagined.

http://blog.therohogroup.com/index.php/2012/04/ada-drive-by-...

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/bullying_city_bi...

And yes, you can say that these places should be handicap accessible, but there is no denying that some of these people are definitely making a profit from these lawsuits.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#93
post #78
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually believe that calling someone a sexist (however 'careless' it might be) is an attack on the male gender as a whole? Really? Try swapping sexism with homophobia or racism, and see how ridiculous you sound. (Note: I agree with your first assertion.) First, throwing the term 'racist' around carelessly undermines genuine claims of racism. Second, it attempts to not only target an individual as racist, but…

Swap it for racism? Ok. A clear example of what he's talking about can be observed in the tendency particularly during the "Town Hall" meetings, and thruout the rest of the Obamacare debate to characterize anyone who disagreed with that piece of legislation as "Racist" for disagreeing with Obama. Because Obama is "Black", and those using this tactic agreed with him, so rather than respond to the points, they felt com…

To clarify, I don't object to the claim that people have wrongly used the "gender/race/etc card" when it isn't warranted. Of course this is disgusting. I take issue with the idea that, for example, if Obama were to play the race card, that this somehow represents an attack on "whiteness". This is ridiculous.

> This line of attack is not a "reminder" it is an evasion of debate, and an attempt to reject intellectual discourse for ad hominem.

I never meant to imply that. I meant that the reminder that you are privileged, isn't an attack as such. I could have phrased it better, I admit.

> It also shows that many people think that simply because of someone's skin color, gender or sexual orientation is not that of a "minority" that their opinions are groundless and based in ignorance.

> All these security issues are irrelevant because a white presumably straight guy brought them up? Really?

I agree that this is bad. But on the other hand, wouldn't one necessarily need to have these marginalized traits (skin color, gender or sexual orientation) to fully understand discrimination? You can read all you want about discrimination but unless you have actually experienced it, I don't think you'll be able to say anything new or compelling on the matter. That's what everyone wants, really; a good story.

Corny metaphor incoming: It would be like a director who has studied about 1920's history for years, having never experienced it, and a director having breathed and lived it. Who would you prefer to direct a movie, all other things being equal, about the 20's?

An aside: It's the same reason why people attack Romney's life of wealth. "How could someone so rich know how the average person feels?", goes the argument. That's a legitimate concern in my book.

> I don't see how cryptography is intrinsically racial, sexist or related to sexual orientation at all.

In itself cryptography, and by extension, mathematics, has absolutely nothing to do with gender politics or any kind of politics at all. Number theory is number theory is number theory. Yes. But it is in the CONTEXT of the larger social, cultural, political even economical factors, in which all of us live and most of us agree are important, that cryptography is made political. Why should I put on my blinders and ignore all of these issues just because the connection seems vague? (It isn't.) Here's the truth of the matter: everything is political to some extent, and there's nothing wrong with pointing this out.

I really like this quote:

"To claim to be apolitical is a contradiction. Every public stance is a political stance: all social acts can influence others, however subtly or imperceptibly. A political absolute zero is unattainable; just as all matter at a finite temperature radiates heat, all social acts radiate politics. In truth, to be "apolitical" is to be politically white-hot, to shine brightly in the colours of the status quo." -- Stephen Bond

But then again, nobody is saying that cryptography is inherently anti-woman, it's the culture that's under scrutiny.

> It seems those who engage in it feel privileged as if the rules of discourse don't apply to them and they can win by "playing the race/gender/etc. card".

I don't live in the US but I feel like this is an exaggeration. I agree that this behavior is disgusting, but the solution is to shame the individuals who engage in this behavior, not dismiss or whitewash the fundamental concerns.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#94
post #11
post #2

Reverse-sexism undermines and hurts the anti-sexist and female-friendly atmosphere that most of the tech community would like to foster. Gender discrimination and sexism need to be called out and stopped everywhere, but "crying wolf", without reason, weakens the very moral ground we purport to defend.

Indeed - I find Ryan Singel's attitude to be completely and utterly baffling. From his Wired post: "Soghoian suggesting that if Quinn Norton ever wanted to write about about encryption tools in the future, she ought to “step back, take a deep breath, and pull the power cord from your computer” isn’t just rude and obnoxious, it’s border-line sexist" Out of context, I can't really see what he's getting at. In context,…

"Borderline" anything does not make any sense to me. It seems to be nothing more than a way to call somebody something with plausible deniability, I guess to protect against libel/slander suits?

The way I see it, being "borderline" to something means that it is "close" to something, but not actually something. I guess an octagon could be a "borderline" circle? The issue here though is that if you are pointing out that something is "borderline sexist", you are basically saying "it is not sexist, but it is close to it". What the hell does "close to sexist" mean? Is being "close to sexist" wrong? If yes, why isn't it just called "sexist"?

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#95
post #9

Without a lot of prior context, this seems like a clear-headed rebuttal to an otherwise pretty low ad hominem attack. On a specific note, to characterise someone as sexist because they disagree with someone who happens to be a woman is in my opinion itself one of the most egregious examples of both sexism (for reasons I'll detail) and libel (for the damaging political and social impact of being branded with such a la…

> First, throwing the term 'sexist' around carelessly > undermines genuine claims of sexism. The same goes for rasism. We are at the stage, that merely acknowledging someone's sex or race will earn you these labels. Too bad.

"We are at the stage, that merely acknowledging someone's sex or race will earn you these labels."

There are most certainly contexts where unnecessarily acknowledging someone's sex or race will get you labeled. How you bring that up and why you feel it is necessary to do so is the rub.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#96
post #83
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not certain of the exact context since the comment has been deleted, but the impression I gained was that my parent comment suggested tenuously that a person could justify a sexist position taken against an individual due to a statistical bias in the sexes. I was trying to emphasise that this position couldn't be taken logically, not suggesting that "may or may not" was being applied in a non-aggregate fashion.

This is changing the subject slightly, but to be fair, it's the same statistical bias that's used to say that men earn more than women.

"the same statistical bias that's used to say that men earn more than women"

Those statements refer to the same job categories and experience levels.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#97
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An the same goes for antisemitism. In America, [publicly] write anything critical of the Israeli government and you are labeled an anti-Semite.

Criticizing the actions of any government is what it is, but many critics of Israel go so far as to say there should be no Jewish state, which in effect means the Jews should be a people without a homeland, forever vulnerable to extermination by the Gentiles they are forced to live amongst as an eternal minority. That alone is suspicious as it carries the shadow of antisemitism, but once you throw in explicit support…

> Those seeking to criticize the actions of the Israeli government should have to work harder to distinguish themselves from the antisemites who merely disguise their attitudes as criticism of Israel.

This is the opposite of "no true Scotsman" - "always true antisemite"?

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#98
post #6

If the author's going to complain about hype in news coverage, perhaps he shouldn't be a leading contributor to one-sided news coverage like the Wall Street Journal's 'What They Know'. Or is hype in news coverage only a problem when it's hype the author personally disagrees with?

> ... perhaps he shouldn't be a leading contributor to one-sided news coverage ... > ... Or is hype in news coverage only a problem when ... In fact it is only a problem when it's from the other side; and that's an understanding that separates the people who know what they're talking about here from the people who don't. One flaw suffices to break security. Any number of paranoid suspicions can be held without harm (…

While I wasn't privy to Meredith and Quinn's conversation, Meredith is a world-class security researcher, as you can verify with DBLP; and she has a strong interest in protecting political dissidents. So I strongly suspect that she covered all the relevant issues.

Quinn knows plenty of security researchers.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#99
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There most certainly are people who have become celebrities off fostering the notion that true and abhorrent racism is everywhere. They make the news, they travel to picket, they write for newspapers, and in one case have actually been the subject of a South Park episode about creating racism out of nothing. Likewise, there are religious figures who are making money off going on TV and shouting about how their religi…

True and abhorrent racism isn't everywhere , but it is endemic in most societies. And the vast majority of people who have reached 'celebrity' status for their writing on the subject have written because they felt a pressing need to do so, not in order to profit from controversy. If money is your bag, there are far easier ways of making it than trying to become a successful author.

I don't want to name names because for many of the people, breeding controversy is not their only goal. However, the Westboro Baptist Church and various notable Fox News celebrities (the ones who frequent the monologue of The Daily Show) are two cases where there is nothing going on except for profiting from false controversy.

Like I said, they are few. But they do exist, and they do irreparable harm to the discourse of political correctness by feeding off the fear that a group of people has of discrimination.

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