I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad • Hacker News Board

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#221

Post by onli » Thu, Apr 03, 2025, 9:27 AM UTC

joseda-hg wrote: post #8

al_borland wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framework is still very new. It takes time to build a brand. I hope their new Framework 12 hits it big with the mainstream. It sounds like it’s targeted as the school/chromebook market, but as an adult I’m also interested. I’m hoping when the pre-orders go up next week it’s priced in a way that makes it an impulse buy. I really don’t need it, but I want to support the company and their mission.

As someone that had been thinking on buying both a tablet and some sort of chromebook for light web based workflows on the go, they 100% have my attention I will say, it has weirded me out that they have been so cagey about the pricing in particular, which AFAICT, is the only thing not public about the laptop before the pre order date

I also saw no mention about the weight. Did you? Matters to me a lot for a 12".

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#222

Post by NullPrefix » Thu, Apr 03, 2025, 9:28 AM UTC

globular-toast wrote: post #107

quailfarmer wrote: post #79

The tightness of hardware integration isn't a bug, it's genuinely a feature; In fact, it's the defining feature that makes Apple hardware great. Socketed RAM, CPU, and Storage just weren't worth the tradeoffs, namely size, weight, cost, and performance. Including those modular interfaces just wasn't worth it when the internal interfaces would be obsolete within 5 years, and the average user was replacing sub-componen…

Sad but true. Most people don't do much with the things they own, even if they can. Cars get serviced when they are told to, by someone else. No modifications are done. It's a weird thing to me because you get the downsides of ownership (liability for servicing and repairs) but none of the upsides. I wish more people took direct control over their lives. But many are just happy to not think and put up with whatever t…

>Cars [...] No modifications are done

In a lot of places that is highly illegal

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#223

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Apr 03, 2025, 9:30 AM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #218

bambax wrote: post #214

> One of the main reasons that old Thinkpads stand out is their design philosophy. They are made with swappable components with the intention of user upgradeability. On a fixed PC everything is swappable by definition. I don't quite understand why people love laptops so much. If you're using your PC in only one place a tower PC is cheaper and can be upgraded indefinitely with only a screwdriver (if that).

People love them because they want to use their PC in more than one place.

And employers love them because if people take them home overnight they only need security / insurance for peripherals. The only fixed PCs I still see in offices are low cost / bulk Dell machines only good for office work or thin clients, and even those go back ~15 years now, at a bank that already had relatively tight security.

I wish I could have a job where I work on a desktop machine and could just leave things at the office when I leave for the day. Alas.

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#224

Post by M95D » Thu, Apr 03, 2025, 9:33 AM UTC

CursedSilicon wrote: post #6

I wish that Framework could attain the same lofty levels of "second hand market success" that ThinkPads enjoy. A lot of the "Thinkpad fans" I've talked to genuinely want them, or respect them for similar reasons they enjoy the ThinkPad legacy. ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench themselves and the requirements of operating systems (a…

Let me say from the start that I only saw Framework laptops in pictures and I still have my old Lenovo X60 Tablet.

I hate Framework laptops' design. They went to the extreme of repairability but only as a marketing tool, while the products are still e-waste trash.

I looked at Framework 13 laptop as a replacement for my X60 Tablet. Let me do a comparison between them:

  - FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a train/bus/airplane.
  - X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back

  - FW13 has 2 internal expansion ports (M.2, I think), both permanently occupied by storage and wifi
  - X60 has 2 internal expansion ports (miniPCIe): one is occupied by wifi, one is for WWAN (optional). Storage is in a separate SATA bay.

  - FW13 has no external expansion slots, except if you count USB as expansion
  - X60 has 1 external expansion (PCMCIA/Cardbus type 2) - far more robust than USB-C, and the metal case provides cooling

  - FW13 has 4 USB-C ports, one is permanently occupied by the power cable
  - X60 has 3 USB-A ports (far more robust than USB-C), while charging is a separate barrel plug (also far more robust than USB-C)

  - FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter
  - X60 has VGA-out directly from the GPU

  - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card
  - X60 has preamplified headphone-out and mic-in (also has internal microphone)

  - FW13 has video camera
  - X60 does not

  - FW13 has stereo speakers
  - X60 has a single mono speaker

  - FW13 has no ethernet, except as a USB adapter
  - X60 has gigabit ethernet

  Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't:
  - Touchscreen with pen, some models work with finger too, some don't
  - great keyboard and also some extra hardware buttons such as volume, instead of key combinations
  - Fingerprint reader
  - SD card slot
  - Firewire
  - IR port, fax/modem (not much use these days)
  - An attachable dock (not wired like current USB docks) that can house a CD/DVD drive, or another HDD/SDD, or extra battery and has another 2 USB ports, RS232 and parallel port.
  - There's also an external battery module that directly connects to the docking port.

Please note that the X60 is ~15 years old. This wasn't a performance comparison.

So, yes, framework laptops are repaireable, but they're so crippled, there isn't much left in them to repair.

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#225

Post by defraudbah » Thu, Apr 03, 2025, 9:39 AM UTC

ccppurcell wrote: post #159

Mine's about 13. I just upgraded from Ubuntu 22 to 24 and I'm regretting it a bit. on 22 I could watch downloaded films on an external monitor but not stream video. I could live with that. But now it seems 24 uses just a little more memory and watching a downloaded video on the monitor makes it shudder... :(

check out lubuntu/xubuntu/kubuntu, perfect for internet browsing and watching videos

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#226

Post by simgt » Thu, Apr 03, 2025, 9:41 AM UTC

myaccountonhn wrote: post #152

quailfarmer wrote: post #79

The tightness of hardware integration isn't a bug, it's genuinely a feature; In fact, it's the defining feature that makes Apple hardware great. Socketed RAM, CPU, and Storage just weren't worth the tradeoffs, namely size, weight, cost, and performance. Including those modular interfaces just wasn't worth it when the internal interfaces would be obsolete within 5 years, and the average user was replacing sub-componen…

I think it's an attitude worth challenging. The minerals required to build these laptops are limited, and one day we will have to realize this and care for what we own.

Easily swappable components also increase resources consumption. We don't necessary want or need to be able to fix all the parts of our laptops or cars (or shoes!) at home, but we definitely want and need a local professional to be able to do so for a reasonable cost.

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#227

Post by bjpirt » Thu, Apr 03, 2025, 9:50 AM UTC

I've been pondering the same thought recently but applied to analog cameras. Analog cameras have evolved over time, approximately according to the following:

- fully mechanical

- mechanical shutter with light meter

- electronic control of shutter, mechanical advance

- fully electronic shutter and advance

Broadly, what I'm finding after digging in to restoring some cameras is that most of the cameras from the first stage can still be fixed and made to perform close to when they were new. The second still work, but the light meter can die (simpler light meters may be repairable, later ones not so much). The third and fourth stages - once they die, there's no repairing them. And when you look at digital cameras, there'll be very, very few of these that last long into the future.

This bears out the 'Lindy Effect' mentioned in the article.

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#228

Post by bambax » Thu, Apr 03, 2025, 9:50 AM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #218

bambax wrote: post #214

> One of the main reasons that old Thinkpads stand out is their design philosophy. They are made with swappable components with the intention of user upgradeability. On a fixed PC everything is swappable by definition. I don't quite understand why people love laptops so much. If you're using your PC in only one place a tower PC is cheaper and can be upgraded indefinitely with only a screwdriver (if that).

People love them because they want to use their PC in more than one place.

What are those places? Do most people have multiple residences? Or do they think they might need it, and in practice never do?

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#229

Post by maiinablegkri » Thu, Apr 03, 2025, 9:52 AM UTC

zenolijo wrote: post #109

quailfarmer wrote: post #79

The tightness of hardware integration isn't a bug, it's genuinely a feature; In fact, it's the defining feature that makes Apple hardware great. Socketed RAM, CPU, and Storage just weren't worth the tradeoffs, namely size, weight, cost, and performance. Including those modular interfaces just wasn't worth it when the internal interfaces would be obsolete within 5 years, and the average user was replacing sub-componen…

> A professional can still replace almost any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home. Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new d…

>Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead.

This is generally a problem in taxation than the devices. Consider I want to have an electrician fix my broken wallsocket:

>Billed for 100€/hour

>Out of which expenses for moving using a workcar, calculating by officially recognized tax administration car wear value 0,59€/km for 5km both ways, so ~6€, 94€ remains

>VAT is 25,5%, leaving you with ~70€

>Paying for mandatory employer's portion of pension 17,5%, leaving us with ~57,75€

Now the employee gets 57,75€, out of which following are deducted:

>Income tax for average electrician: 26%, ~15€

>Employee's part of mandatory pension: 7,15%, ~ 4,1€

>Municipal taxes: ~8% depending on municipality ~ 4,6€

So 57,75€ - 23,7€ = ~34€

There are also various single or partial percent taxes that slightly affect the outcome, and companies often want some sort of profit instead of directly giving 100% to the single employee.

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#230

Post by xandrius » Thu, Apr 03, 2025, 9:54 AM UTC

quailfarmer wrote: post #79

The tightness of hardware integration isn't a bug, it's genuinely a feature; In fact, it's the defining feature that makes Apple hardware great. Socketed RAM, CPU, and Storage just weren't worth the tradeoffs, namely size, weight, cost, and performance. Including those modular interfaces just wasn't worth it when the internal interfaces would be obsolete within 5 years, and the average user was replacing sub-componen…

If being able to replace a part requires me to have a screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms.

Right now, having devices which require both expertise and expensive machinery means that the cost of going to someone to repair it will increase over 10 folds, making a full replacement a financial and sound choice.

If my CPU doesn't last for 10 years but I can change it myself in minutes, I would rather that than throwing away everything else I still love and is still functional just for promised extended reliability (which is just a matter of statistics and profit margins at the end of the day).