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Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

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Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#81
post #50
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An the same goes for antisemitism. In America, [publicly] write anything critical of the Israeli government and you are labeled an anti-Semite.

do this in germany and you go to prison. usa still has the most liberal freedom of speech laws.

No you don’t.

You can be punished if you deny the holocaust or if you display Nazi paraphernalia in public (except for teaching purposes or in art, …).

None of this is in any way related to criticism of Israel. You will never go to prison for criticizing Israel.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#82
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually believe that calling someone a sexist (however 'careless' it might be) is an attack on the male gender as a whole? Really? Try swapping sexism with homophobia or racism, and see how ridiculous you sound. (Note: I agree with your first assertion.) First, throwing the term 'racist' around carelessly undermines genuine claims of racism. Second, it attempts to not only target an individual as racist, but…

> Do you actually believe that calling someone a sexist (however 'careless' it might be) is an attack on the male gender as a whole Keyword being 'often' not 'always', and it's usually particular to the male/female gender issue rather than all majorities/minorities. In particular, if you read the article you'll see that both the critic who claimed sexism and the woman being critiqued throw the term "boy's clubs" abou…

> What I get concerned with is that the implicit acceptance of this wider issue claim tends to paint the majority as collectively guilty of issues which should be identified on an individual basis, which leads to more of the "us vs them" mentality that we're trying to eliminate.

The "boy's club" mentality that a lot of people glean from the "tech zeitgeist", for lack of a better term, is not entirely unfounded. I think a lot of us have a few anecdotes, where women in tech are called "irrational" or otherwise excluded solely for their gender, but we all know that anecdotes prove nothing, and since social issues don't lend themselves very well to scientific examination (too many variables), I present another angle.

Entertain the following notion: The reason it's more socially acceptable (depending on where you live) to rag on men in society, as opposed to women, is exactly because the relevant(in this case, tech) power structure is mostly male dominated. On its face, it's a terrible argument, but I submit to you that this is how all people subconsciously feel about the concept of discrimination.

And further, since people look different, inherently, the mass of people will inevitably make it an us/them issue. Always. This is one of the many ugly aspects of human nature, that I would love to see eradicated, but I'm afraid that, for now, it's a techno-utopic fantasy.

And of course, it's not fair at all, that because you or I share more "traits" with the leaders of society, that we are made to feel guilty for something we have no power to alter. I don't believe that's a good thing. But remember, the motif of the underdog overcoming all obstacles (an "us vs. them") has been around since the dawn of man, and people are naturally attracted to the "us vs. them" idea, even if it's a gross over-simplification of the truth. So everyone will naturally and subconsciously blame anyone who shares the traits of "them". That's why people, as you say "[tend] to paint the majority as collectively guilty of issues which should be identified on an individual basis, which leads to more of the "us vs them" mentality that we're trying to eliminate."

Instead of looking at these issues as cases of reverse sexism: "oh you believe that just because she's a woman, she can't make it in the tech world and needs protection/help", I look at it as acknowledging that all people have certain cognitive biases and that the majority of people will act on them subtly, all of which add up.

Anyone with a note of clarity and dignity in their heads knows that all people are of the same seed, and that, ignoring serious brain/developmental damage, all people are able to do much the same work, albeit at varying speed/efficiency.

But I also know, that subconsciously, I will tend to look down on "black people" as a whole if I see a black person to something wrong, as opposed to someone who looks like me, in which case I will look down on the individual. The sad truth is that all people will unconsciously and subtly ignore reason to all sorts of cognitive biases without realizing it. Everyone, you and me included. And to add further insult to injury, we will call that "rational" or "reason".

For example, people will tout IQ scores to show that blacks are inferior to whites, as if intelligence is determined by someone's ability to solve a few geometry puzzles, and that this further can be reduced to a single positive integer. This is what passes for rationality in some circles. Just a reminder.

[These articles highlight my point better, for those who are interested.]

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2012/04/17/ego-depletion/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/23/confirmation-bias/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/07/the-just-world-fallac...

My point is that we are not the rational actors we would like ourselves to be. We need to acknowledge that base, petty, irrational human nature still rules much of society, and we need to accept that we are all (everyone, to differing extents) parts of larger social mechanisms that subtly, but systematically, exclude anyone who looks or acts different.

Another example; discriminatory laws (like Hate Crimes) seem to, at face value, unjustly make the law about skin color. But viewed from a larger historical, cultural and social perspective, they're an attempt to give minorities more of a legal foot to stand on in a society where blacks are sentenced harder than whites for the exact same crimes. The guilt we are made to feel is the price we all pay (yes, even minorities who happen to also be part of a single dominant social group are made to feel guilty).

> the "us vs them" mentality that we're trying to eliminate.

I too want to live in a world where everyone is judged not according to their superficial traits, but according to their skills. A world of can's and can-not's, not have and have-not's. A world where rational scientific inquiry is separated neatly from politics (I assume you agree). But I further realize that we are an innately irrational and fearful species, who will seize on anything, statistics, science, even rationality, to justify our prejudices and worldviews.

That's why I believe positive discrimination is (fundamentally) good for our age. Yes, these measures are imperfect, inelegant, ugly ad-hoc solutions that create double-standards in society, but instead of pretending that simple, elegant solutions to complex problems are good, we have to face reality; sometimes, complex social problems need ugly, unjust solutions, until the time where a better solution is made real, because the alternative is to let human irrationality go unchecked and unaccountable.

Just to sum up all my rambling; we must accept that the problem is human nature, and that the "us vs. them" exists because of human nature, and that the ugly double standards of positive discrimination exist to counter-balance the effects of that, at the unfortunate but small price of further legitimizing it. These measures exist to reminds us that one-sided discrimination exists to this day. That's why we need them and that's why I think the benefits greatly outweigh the harms in the long run.

Edit: Looking at the post now I realized I typed way too much text in one comment. I'm sorry about this.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#83
post #30
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"May or may not" is the same as "on average, may or may not".

I'm not certain of the exact context since the comment has been deleted, but the impression I gained was that my parent comment suggested tenuously that a person could justify a sexist position taken against an individual due to a statistical bias in the sexes. I was trying to emphasise that this position couldn't be taken logically, not suggesting that "may or may not" was being applied in a non-aggregate fashion.

This is changing the subject slightly, but to be fair, it's the same statistical bias that's used to say that men earn more than women.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue there's some work that needs to be done on the other side of the coin, too. There are too many people making money off feeling oppressed. I personally don't feel the answer is making honest people go out of their way to carefully word their sentences to avoid mentioning a characteristic of a person, I feel the answer is understanding that saying "that is a person" is nowhere near as descriptive as "a bl…

Nobody is "making money off feeling oppressed".

There most certainly are people who have become celebrities off fostering the notion that true and abhorrent racism is everywhere. They make the news, they travel to picket, they write for newspapers, and in one case have actually been the subject of a South Park episode about creating racism out of nothing.

Likewise, there are religious figures who are making money off going on TV and shouting about how their religious freedoms are being trampled on and how it literally is an "us vs them" fight and if they lose it's game over for their deity.

Likewise, there are celebrities who get their paycheck in part or full from finding sexism in daily life. Ryan Singel just became one of them.

It's the power these people, few though they may be, hold over the discussions in society, the power to push political correctness and make people second-guess their words and actions to the point where it's impossible to keep up with what is polite to say and what will get you fired, beaten up, or cast out. There's money to be made in controversy, and that money isn't going uncollected.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the expansionism, and the dispossession of Palestinians that requires, that gets all activists of my acquaintance _really_ het up. Why exactly all the settlements in the West Bank, outside the Wall? Are they "correct" according to Zionism? Because if yes, Zionism is an ideology in favour of ethnic cleansing, which is an uncomfortable spot to sit...

> Why exactly all the settlements in the West Bank I think it's reasonable to oppose those. Though I'm skeptical the settlements make any real difference in the situation. Removing them from the Gaza Strip didn't seem to make any difference, why would removing them from the West Bank help?

Well, it would signal seriousness about a two-state solution (how is this http://news.antiwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/westbank.... ever supposed to be a country? It's been almost completely Balkanized) and stop the theft of Palestinian land (it's very hard to feel ...less than ambivalent about a neighbouring country who allows its citizens steal your livelihood).

Basically, to stop this kind of conflict takes dialogue. Lots and lots of dialogue, with people who are serious about it. And not stopping the expansion of the West Bank settlements as per the Oslo Accords signaled that the Israeli government was not serious about its commitments.

(Hi, I'm Irish, I have a small idea whereof I speak, though not much.)

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#88
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An the same goes for antisemitism. In America, [publicly] write anything critical of the Israeli government and you are labeled an anti-Semite.

Criticizing the actions of any government is what it is, but many critics of Israel go so far as to say there should be no Jewish state, which in effect means the Jews should be a people without a homeland, forever vulnerable to extermination by the Gentiles they are forced to live amongst as an eternal minority. That alone is suspicious as it carries the shadow of antisemitism, but once you throw in explicit support…

I disagree, the Israeli government should be working harder to distinguish itself as a well-governed state, especially when looked at from the U.S. as there is a large sum of foreign aid and military aid going from our tax dollars to the state.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#89
post #65
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the Wired who has been getting tons of press for their reporting on the Apple iCloud debacle last weekend? That irrelevant Wired?

That whole Apple thing was staged. It started as a thought experiment over beers and was carried to its natural conclusion in the name of page views and awareness. Wired has oscillated between relevant and annoying for many, many years now. The type of attack they 'documented' is well-known and has been discussed in many circles. This is part of the reason they've had so many quotes from 'the hacker'. It's all about…

Is this your pet theory, or do you have some way of documenting that it was staged? And do you have examples of records on the internet where this attack was discussed before?

I'm not saying that you are mistaken, nor am I saying that you are lying. But I can't accept an assertion like that at face value without seeing some supporting evidence.

Re: Responding to Wired's ad hominem hatchet job

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is "making money off feeling oppressed".

There most certainly are people who have become celebrities off fostering the notion that true and abhorrent racism is everywhere. They make the news, they travel to picket, they write for newspapers, and in one case have actually been the subject of a South Park episode about creating racism out of nothing. Likewise, there are religious figures who are making money off going on TV and shouting about how their religi…

True and abhorrent racism isn't everywhere, but it is endemic in most societies. And the vast majority of people who have reached 'celebrity' status for their writing on the subject have written because they felt a pressing need to do so, not in order to profit from controversy. If money is your bag, there are far easier ways of making it than trying to become a successful author.
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