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Where does air pollution come from?

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Re: Where does air pollution come from?

#71

Post by zemvpferreira »

concordDance wrote: post #46
motorest wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could it be that many of those people whose death was caused by pollution may have been frail and close to death anyway? What point are you trying to make? I mean, you don't seem to dispute that pollution can and does kill people.

Yeah, but there's a big difference between dying a few months earlier when you'd already be bedridden with your mind mostly gone and dying 50 years early. Which is why QALYs are such a good metric.

You make a good point but I think adding QALYs to this discussion is unnecessary complication, for one reason: like most public health menaces, pollution will impact lifespan and healthspan proportionatly, ie you’ll die sooner and also live worse years if you’re exposed. There is a proportionately better chance of ageing well and dieing later if you avoid it.

QALYs really shine when measuring a one-off risk, such as an operation or cancer treatment that might add lifespan but decrease healthspan. If QALY data exists for pollution that’s great, but I think we can easily extrapolate the impact in healthspan from the toll in lifespan.

Re: Where does air pollution come from?

#72

Post by [deleted] »

phtrivier wrote: post #11

What still baffles me is the reduction in SO2 emissions due to regulations on shipping fuel. How did the shipping industry accept / manage / afford to switch fuels (presumably, to more expensive ones) in order to follow the regulation ; as opposed to delay / deny / deflect, or plain old lobbying the hell against the changes ? Are we in a "Montreal protocol" situation, where the alternative was existing and acceptable…

[deleted]

Re: Where does air pollution come from?

#73

Post by Lutger »

globular-toast wrote: post #62
alcover wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those most affected are the poorest Please pardon my pedantry but this is by definition what poor is : having less means to escape material woes. Rich people are the ones that can elect to live in healthy areas.

Yes, but if the air pollution we're talking about is invisible then why would the rich elect for less exposure? Some might look at air quality data, but I suspect what is really going on is they seek out quiet . Noise pollution is the thing people really hate and avoiding that will likely lead to getting better air quality too.

Exactly. The rich don't actively avoid air pollution, not really.

A very significant and underestimated source of pollution is burning of wood. BBQ, fireplaces and stove, even expensive modern 'ecodesign' heating solutions that burn wood: these all cause massive and dangerous air pollution. And it is often, in my country at least, somewhat of a luxury thing. As soon as you get out of the poorest of area's, you smell the burning of wood which can cause more than 50 percent of total pollution locally, even rivaling the effects of smoking.

Re: Where does air pollution come from?

#74

Post by weinzierl »

phtrivier wrote: post #11

What still baffles me is the reduction in SO2 emissions due to regulations on shipping fuel. How did the shipping industry accept / manage / afford to switch fuels (presumably, to more expensive ones) in order to follow the regulation ; as opposed to delay / deny / deflect, or plain old lobbying the hell against the changes ? Are we in a "Montreal protocol" situation, where the alternative was existing and acceptable…

SO2 was the main driver behind the forest dieback. I'd estimate that the global investments in forrest property (mostly by old money) dwarfs the total cost for the switch to sulfur free fuel.

It is remarkable how fast the wheels of progress turn when old money faces the prospect of their assets being washed away.

Re: Where does air pollution come from?

#75

Post by imtringued »

johnthesecure wrote: post #3

It's interesting to see the number of deaths caused by pollution. But everyone will die of something. Could it be that many of those people whose death was caused by pollution may have been frail and close to death anyway? I wonder if it would be more useful to talk about quality-life-years (QUALYs) lost as a result of pollution. Probably much harder to get that data though.

As you said, everyone will die of something and those who die are close to death. Therefore you can now justify abandoning any treatment that increases lifespans. The new baseline lifespan is shorter, therefore everyone is closer to death, let's abandon the next treatment.

Re: Where does air pollution come from?

#76

Post by oblio »

aucisson_masque wrote: post #64
triknomeister wrote: post #60

Looking at how much pollution is from energy, solar does seem to be the best thing that can happen in current timeline to humanity. Global warming AND pollution gone in a single stroke.

Solar panel price have never been so low. It's only a matter of time before 'the invisible hand of economy' makes people buying them en masse.

It's already doing that but progress is hindered by installers that overcharge due to high demand and due to utility companies trying to cushion their blow of upgrading their infrastructure and doing all sorts of shenanigans.

Re: Where does air pollution come from?

#77

Post by 0xEF »

Lutger wrote: post #73
globular-toast wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but if the air pollution we're talking about is invisible then why would the rich elect for less exposure? Some might look at air quality data, but I suspect what is really going on is they seek out quiet . Noise pollution is the thing people really hate and avoiding that will likely lead to getting better air quality too.

Exactly. The rich don't actively avoid air pollution, not really. A very significant and underestimated source of pollution is burning of wood. BBQ, fireplaces and stove, even expensive modern 'ecodesign' heating solutions that burn wood: these all cause massive and dangerous air pollution. And it is often, in my country at least, somewhat of a luxury thing. As soon as you get out of the poorest of area's, you smell…

Do you have data on how much wood burning contributes to air pollution compared to, say, burning fossil fuels? On the surface, your comment sounds like more rhetoric trying to shift the blame from the companies to the consumer, an unfortunately common problem that is getting us nowhere in correcting environmental problems. That said, if there is data displaying this discrepancy, I'll happily change my mind.

Re: Where does air pollution come from?

#78

Post by oblio »

worldsayshi wrote: post #53
h1fra wrote: post #48

What's scary is that all significant sources of pollution are going down, except the ones related to agriculture (ammonia and methane) which are showing no signs of slowing down. I feel like you can bend the heavy industry because it's just "a few" people to convince, but you can't change 7B people's eating habits :/

Curated meat might eventually make a dent. Hopefully.

Lab grown meat seems to be comparable to classic meat in terms of environmental impact so at the moment it seems to be better purely in moral terms.

I wish we'd bite the bullet and go all in on vegetarian and vegan foods but we need to invest a ton in them to make them more palatable and easily accessible, including to poor people.

Re: Where does air pollution come from?

#79

Post by Calwestjobs »

nomilk wrote: post #43

Something I haven't quite figured out is why my perceptions of cities' air pollution differ dramatically from their readings as reported by air quality sites. I suspect readings are quite dependent on the specific location of the reading device. E.g. if the air quality monitor is located in a claustrophobic city street with lots of motorcycle traffic (e.g. Nha Trang), air pollution might be through the roof, but 100m…

Percentage wise absolutely, said beach can have 99% less pollution.

but in absolute terms, pollution is so high in that street that even 1% of said beach pollution (which is already 1% of street) is already out of bounds of limits considered safe. Blue "haze" is pollution, not fog (water vapor).

Look, people do not understand scale, one motorcycle/lawnmower can have emissions of 300 cars equipped with catalytic converter. So in your street, there is 100 motorcycles which produce as much pollution as 30 000 cars in new york. this is not hyperbole to make a point. These ratios are physical reality.

electric cars have no emissions (except dust from tires which is same as fossil car). so why even use fossil transport is beyond me. also you can charge motorcycle from solar panel on your roof.

buses, vans, boats can have solar panels on their own roof to expand range of said vehicle. in malay or indonesia there is sun shining almost same throughout year. in europe /usa we have huge difference between summer and winter insolation and sun angle.

Re: Where does air pollution come from?

#80

Post by fedeb95 »

matsemann wrote: post #54
xlii wrote: post #47

I thought that this article will address an elephant in the room but either it missed it or I missed it. My problem with pollution is that… you need to measure it, and those who pollute don’t do it consciously. Anecdotally I often drive through a small town. You can smell pollution, a plastic smell. In winter you can see column of smoke coming out of chimney. Sometimes it’s milky white, sometimes it thick black. Ther…

That small town might get even more pollution from all the cars driving through it, though. It's counter-intuitive, but columns of smoke from chimneys might often just be water, or be too high to really affect locally (but globally it matters, of course) compared to cars driving and flinging dust where people breathe.

why oppose installing sensors? Let's be sure of that.
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