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"Computer Science" is Not Science and "Software Engineering" is Not Engineering

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Re: "Computer Science" is Not Science and "Software Engineering" is Not Engineering

#11

Post by brianto2010 »

polshaw wrote: post #7

As someone with an engineering degree, it does irk me to constantly hear programmers referred to around these quarters as 'engineers', it's extremely introspective, and IMO a little disrespectful. Similarly to the 'are you technical?' thing, why is there such an aversion to the term programmer or software developer? I have no problem with the term 'software engineers', as i do seem some parallels, and it is clear wha…

So, are you saying that a discipline that does not involve the physical world cannot necessarily be an engineering discipline?

Personally, I don't usually see people favoring the word "engineer" over programmer or software developer. As for myself, I see them as synonyms.

Re: "Computer Science" is Not Science and "Software Engineering" is Not Engineering

#12

Post by rimantas »

polshaw wrote: post #7

As someone with an engineering degree, it does irk me to constantly hear programmers referred to around these quarters as 'engineers', it's extremely introspective, and IMO a little disrespectful. Similarly to the 'are you technical?' thing, why is there such an aversion to the term programmer or software developer? I have no problem with the term 'software engineers', as i do seem some parallels, and it is clear wha…

Yeah, and leave the "web" for spiders, correct? Engineering was long before software appeared, but is this a good enough reason not to reuse the word? Some software just happens (alas), but some is engineered—that is thought upon, designed; time is spent thinking how different parts are put together and how they will interact.

Re: "Computer Science" is Not Science and "Software Engineering" is Not Engineering

#14

Post by espeed »

"Underlying our approach to this subject is our conviction that 'computer science' is not a science and that its significance has little to do with computers. The computer revolution is a revolution in the way we think and in the way we express what we think. The essence of this change is the emergence of what might best be called procedural epistemology­ the study of the structure of knowledge from an imperative point of view, as opposed to the more declarative point of view taken by classical mathematical subjects. Mathematics provides a framework for dealing precisely with notions of 'what is.' Computation provides a framework for dealing precisely with notions of 'how to.'"

-- Preface to the First Edition of Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/front/node3.html)

Re: "Computer Science" is Not Science and "Software Engineering" is Not Engineering

#15

Post by Wohlf »

polshaw wrote: post #7

As someone with an engineering degree, it does irk me to constantly hear programmers referred to around these quarters as 'engineers', it's extremely introspective, and IMO a little disrespectful. Similarly to the 'are you technical?' thing, why is there such an aversion to the term programmer or software developer? I have no problem with the term 'software engineers', as i do seem some parallels, and it is clear wha…

I never really liked the term software engineer, and I think by the very definition of engineer it doesn't work. I've always refered to myself and others as a programmer, coder, or developer.

Re: "Computer Science" is Not Science and "Software Engineering" is Not Engineering

#17

Post by vonmoltke »

polshaw wrote: post #9
foldingstock wrote: post #4

"But we don't have this in software designs for the most part. We have the requirements, such as what the input and output looks like and the run-time constraints which dictate the maximum time a given operation is allowed to take. But there is much in-between these that is elusive to objective metrics. " I pretty much stopped reading here. Elusive to objective metrics? I agree that you can't measure a program like y…

All of your points could be applied to, say, a manager in a business, but nobody would call them a employee engineer or business scientist.

The world does have, rightly or wrongly, "process engineers" who use metrics to modify and optimize processes, physical or business. Just look at how widely the attempts to employ Six Sigma have been.

That said, being able to measure something isn't sufficient; one also needs the control to modify the thing being measured in a way that has deterministic effects on the metrics. GP's metrics have that feedback loop with respect to software, which pushes it towards engineering. Process engineers have that feedback loop, even on business processes. Your manager does not; most of their actions do not create deterministic results.

Re: "Computer Science" is Not Science and "Software Engineering" is Not Engineering

#19

Post by padobson »

So, building a bridge is an engineering endeavor.

Does this mean that drawing blueprints for the bridge is not engineering? What about working a crane? Laying brick? Sealing pavement? Sweeping the bridge?

Could you say that an AWS datacenter is not a feat of engineering? Certainly writing the software that powers it is as important as any other discipline, and every piece of its execution has definable metrics to measure performance.

I've known janitors who sell accounts and measure their foot steps to find the fastest cleaning path. If you sell janitorial services for $2000 a month and it only takes you 2 hours a night to do a job, then you'll make as much money as some engineers. Not that salary is the measure of an engineer, but using math and science to maximize favorable outcomes should be.

Or maybe thats just the measure of a hacker.

Re: "Computer Science" is Not Science and "Software Engineering" is Not Engineering

#20

Post by vandershraaf »

robocaptain wrote: post #3

I only clicked on this link because I saw the geocities.com. I was expecting more BLINK tags and animated gifs :(

I thought i was the only one. I'm just so excited to see this ancient site got surfaced again.
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