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The case against conversational interfaces

julian.digital

201–210 of 225 posts

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that is how we used to buy a plane ticket. Long before flights.google.com's price table, you'd call a human up and tell them you'd like to go on holiday. They'd ask you where and when and how much you could afford, and then after a while with the old system (SABRE) clicking and clacking they'd find you a good deal. After a few flights with that travel agent, they'd hey to know you and wouldn't have to ask so many…

And how many people book flights that way today?

not how many, but which ones? As a regular person, I buy it myself, but do you think rich people do that? No, they just ask their (human) assistant to get a flight to New York around 7pm this Friday, and then move onto the next problem in their lives.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that is how we used to buy a plane ticket. Long before flights.google.com's price table, you'd call a human up and tell them you'd like to go on holiday. They'd ask you where and when and how much you could afford, and then after a while with the old system (SABRE) clicking and clacking they'd find you a good deal. After a few flights with that travel agent, they'd hey to know you and wouldn't have to ask so many…

I don't see how "but that's the way we used to do things" is an argument in favor of conversational interfaces. The whole point is that we currently have better , more efficient ways of doing those things, so why would we regress to inferior methods?

You have to define which axis' you're using to define efficient. If I were an executive at some corporation, I'd tell my assistant to book me a flight to New York on Friday at 7pm and that takes me less than 10 seconds. It may take her a while longer, but that's her problem and that's what I pay her for.

How long is it going to take you to get to a device, load the app/webpage, tell it which airport you're flying from and going to and what date and then you start looking at options. You've blown way past the 10 seconds it took for that executive to get a plane flight.

Better is in the eye of the beholder. What's monetarily efficient isn't going to be temporaly efficient, and that's true along a lot of other dimensions too.

Point is, there are some people that like having conversations, you may not be one of them. you don't have to be. I'm not taking away your mouse and keyboard. I have those too and won't give them up either. But I also find talking out loud helps my thinking process though I know that's not everybody.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[imprecise thinking] v In many cases, you don't want or need that. In some, you do. Use right tool for the job, etc.

Despite feeling like a "let me draw it for you" answer is a tad condescending, I want to address something here. This would be great if LLMs did not tend to output nonsense. Truly it would be grand. But they do. So it isn't. It's wasting resources hoping for a good outcome and risking frustration, misapprehensions, prompt injection attacks... It's non-deterministic algorithms hoping P=NP, except instead of branching…

> Despite feeling like a "let me draw it for you" answer is a tad condescending, I want to address something here.

I didn't mean it to be condescending - though I can see how it can come across as such. FWIW, I opted for a diagram after I typed half a page worth of "normal" text and realized I'm still not able to elucidate my point - so I deleted it and drew something matching my message more closely.

> This would be great if LLMs did not tend to output nonsense. Truly it would be grand. But they do. So it isn't.

I find this critique to be tiring at this point - it's just as wrong as assuming LLMs work perfectly and all is fine. Both views are too definite, too binary. In reality, LLMs are just non-deterministic - that is, they have an error rate. How big it is, and how small can it get in practice for a given tasks - those are the important questions.

Pretty much every aspect of computing is only probabilistically correct - either because the algorithm is explicitly so (UUIDs and primality testing, for starters), or just because it runs on real hardware, and physics happen. Most people get away with pretending that our systems are either correct or not, but that's only possible because the error rate is low enough. But it's never that low by accident - it got pushed there by careful design at every level, hardware and software. LLMs are just another probabilistically correct system that, over time, we'll learn how to use in ways that gets the error rate low enough to stop worrying about it.

How can we get there - now, that is an interesting challenge.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What prevents the system to remember your previous choices? Then it can assume you choice haven't changed, and propose you a solution that matches your previous choices. And to give the user control it just needs to explicitly tell the user about the assumption it made. In fact, a smart enough system could even see when violating the assumptions could lead to a substantial gain and try convincing the user that it may…

It still has to tell you. Visually in a form it's much faster. Similar reason why many people prefer a blog post over a video. Talking is not very efficient, and it's serial in fixed time. With something visual you can look at whatever you want whenever you want, at your own (irregular) pace. You will also be able to make changes much faster. You can go to the target form element right away, and you get immediate fee…

> Similar reason why many people prefer a blog post over a video.

I used to be a reading blog over watching video person, but for some things I’ve come to appreciate the video version. The reason you want to get the video of the whatever is because in the blog post, what’s written down only what the author thought was important. But I’m not them. I don’t know everything they know and I don’t see everything they see. I can’t do everything they do but with the video I get everything. When you perform the whatever the video has every detail, not just the ones you think are important. That bit between step 1 and step 2 that’s obvious? It’s not obvious to everyone, or mine is broken in a slightly different way that I really need to see that bit between 1 and 2. of course, videos get edited and cut so they don’t always have that benefit, but I’ve grown to appreciate them.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[imprecise thinking] v In many cases, you don't want or need that. In some, you do. Use right tool for the job, etc.

Despite feeling like a "let me draw it for you" answer is a tad condescending, I want to address something here. This would be great if LLMs did not tend to output nonsense. Truly it would be grand. But they do. So it isn't. It's wasting resources hoping for a good outcome and risking frustration, misapprehensions, prompt injection attacks... It's non-deterministic algorithms hoping P=NP, except instead of branching…

Using the word hotel has a lot of baggage, but having a large quantity of rooms for rent, for cheap, with a bathroom but no dedicated kitchen would be amazing for the housing crisis. If they were high quality and sound isolated, with high speed elevators, and communal spaces for residents, it could work. I'm not an architect though.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite feeling like a "let me draw it for you" answer is a tad condescending, I want to address something here. This would be great if LLMs did not tend to output nonsense. Truly it would be grand. But they do. So it isn't. It's wasting resources hoping for a good outcome and risking frustration, misapprehensions, prompt injection attacks... It's non-deterministic algorithms hoping P=NP, except instead of branching…

Using the word hotel has a lot of baggage, but having a large quantity of rooms for rent, for cheap, with a bathroom but no dedicated kitchen would be amazing for the housing crisis. If they were high quality and sound isolated, with high speed elevators, and communal spaces for residents, it could work. I'm not an architect though.

In the early 2000's there was a push for building apodments which were a room, bathroom, and shared kitchen area. Some people liked them but it isn't for everyone.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#207
post #32
post #16

> The second thing we need to figure out is how we can compress voice input to make it faster to transmit. What’s the voice equivalent of a thumbs-up or a keyboard shortcut? Can I prompt Claude faster with simple sounds and whistles? This reminds me of the amazing 2013 video of Travis Rudd coding python by voice: https://youtu.be/8SkdfdXWYaI?si=AwBE_fk6Y88tLcos The number of times in the last few years I've wanted th…

Oh wow. That video is 12 years old. Early in the presentation Travis reveals he used Dragon back then. Do you recall Swype keyboard for Android? The one that popularized swyping to write on touch screens? It had Dragon at some point. IT WAS AMAZING. Around 12-14 years ago (Android 2.3? Maybe 3?) I was able to easily dictate full long text messages and emails, in my native tongue, including punctuation and occasional…

> It's 2025 and the closest I can find is a dictation app on my newest phone that uses online AI service, yet it's still not that great [...]

> Is there anything equally effective for any of you nowadays?

I'm not affiliated in any way. You might be interested in the "Futo Keyboard" and voice input apps - they run completely offline and respect your privacy.

The source code is open and it does a good job at punctuation without you needing to prompt it by saying, "comma," or, "question mark," unlike other voice input apps such as Google's gboard.

https://keyboard.futo.org/

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite feeling like a "let me draw it for you" answer is a tad condescending, I want to address something here. This would be great if LLMs did not tend to output nonsense. Truly it would be grand. But they do. So it isn't. It's wasting resources hoping for a good outcome and risking frustration, misapprehensions, prompt injection attacks... It's non-deterministic algorithms hoping P=NP, except instead of branching…

Using the word hotel has a lot of baggage, but having a large quantity of rooms for rent, for cheap, with a bathroom but no dedicated kitchen would be amazing for the housing crisis. If they were high quality and sound isolated, with high speed elevators, and communal spaces for residents, it could work. I'm not an architect though.

You're describing student housing and if you ever lived in one you'd know how bad of an idea you're musing with.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#209
post #207
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow. That video is 12 years old. Early in the presentation Travis reveals he used Dragon back then. Do you recall Swype keyboard for Android? The one that popularized swyping to write on touch screens? It had Dragon at some point. IT WAS AMAZING. Around 12-14 years ago (Android 2.3? Maybe 3?) I was able to easily dictate full long text messages and emails, in my native tongue, including punctuation and occasional…

> It's 2025 and the closest I can find is a dictation app on my newest phone that uses online AI service, yet it's still not that great [...] > Is there anything equally effective for any of you nowadays? I'm not affiliated in any way. You might be interested in the "Futo Keyboard" and voice input apps - they run completely offline and respect your privacy. The source code is open and it does a good job at punctuatio…

Thanks for that suggestion.

I know and like Futo, very interesting project. Unfortunately multilang models are not great in my case. Still not bad for an offline tool, but far from "forget it's there, just use it" vibe I had with Dragon.

Funny thing is that I may have missgonfigured something in futo, because my typing corrections are phonetical :) so I type something in Polish and get autocorrect in English composed of different letters, but kind of similar sounding word.

Re: The case against conversational interfaces

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Star trek's crews overall are chosen in a way that seems to consider redundancies, as well as meshing as a team that can offer varying viewpoints. It runs directly counter to that more capitalistic mindset of "why don't we do more with less?" when spending years navigating all kinds of unknown situations, you want as many options as possible available.

Definitely plays well with the kind of scenarios the writers throw at them - you can pretty much expect any Starfleet officer, whether a commander or an ensign, to operate any system on the ship with at least some passing competence. There's no "I work in stellar cartography, I don't know which button fires torpedoes or how to turn on the bio-bed in sick bay" on a Starfleet ship, except when uttered as a joke (or wit…

Actually this is why Lower Decks is so neat, they hint that there are juniors who barely know anything. That might have been the one sticking negative for me growing up, was that you had to be some super smartypants to be anywhere near starfleet
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