Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001) • Hacker News Board

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#141

Post by Natsu » Tue, Apr 01, 2025, 5:15 PM UTC

don-code wrote: post #87

jerf wrote: post #27

One of my Core Memories when it comes to science, science education, and education in general was in my high school physics class, where we had to do an experiment to determine the gravitational acceleration of Earth. This was done via the following mechanism: Roll a ball off of a standard classroom table. Use a 1990s wristwatch's stopwatch mechanism to start the clock when the ball rolls of the table. Stop the stopw…

This is, more or less, exactly what happened when I took Electronics I in college. The course was structured in such a way that you could not move on to the next lab assignment until you completed the one before it. You could complete the lab assignments at your own pace. If you failed the lab, you failed the class, regardless of your grade. The second or third lab had us characterize the response of a transistor in…

It's funny, because while that's a terrible educational experience, you actually learned some important lessons despite them.

I remember the first time I found out that the software documentation I had been relying upon was simply and utterly wrong. It was so freeing to start looking at how things actually behaved instead of believing the utterly false documentation because the world finally made sense again.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#142

Post by potato3732842 » Tue, Apr 01, 2025, 5:15 PM UTC

don-code wrote: post #87

jerf wrote: post #27

One of my Core Memories when it comes to science, science education, and education in general was in my high school physics class, where we had to do an experiment to determine the gravitational acceleration of Earth. This was done via the following mechanism: Roll a ball off of a standard classroom table. Use a 1990s wristwatch's stopwatch mechanism to start the clock when the ball rolls of the table. Stop the stopw…

This is, more or less, exactly what happened when I took Electronics I in college. The course was structured in such a way that you could not move on to the next lab assignment until you completed the one before it. You could complete the lab assignments at your own pace. If you failed the lab, you failed the class, regardless of your grade. The second or third lab had us characterize the response of a transistor in…

>I chose to take a horrible but passing grade in the lab, finished the class with a C- (which was unusual for me), and went on to pretend that the whole thing never happened.

This sentence could have also ended "my gpa dipped below the threshold for some bullshit mark it up to mark it down exercise masquerading as a scholarship and I had to re-take the class for a better grade anyway"

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#143

Post by jerf » Tue, Apr 01, 2025, 5:16 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #116

Sesse__ wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My physics professor told us once about a lab he had to do when he was a student himself, about measuring the adiabatic gas constant of air. The workload at that point was immense, so lots of students would just write a report and give the textbook answer—and be marked wrong. It turned out the TA had sabotaged the experiment by putting alcohol in the bottom of the (dark glass) measurement bottle, so the measurement w…

As bad as the prior story is, I don't know if intentionally misleading the students is the right way either— what if one had realized the contamination and acting in good faith had cleaned out the bottle? What if they did this afterward and ended up redoing the experiment only to be told they had cheated? I'm all for exposing students to something unknown, but telling them they're doing X when it's really Y for anyth…

You can square that circle by announcing at the beginning of the course that there is going to be some assignment like that, but I'm not telling you which, because the real world doesn't.

I do agree this is a good point; trust is not something that should be simply squandered. Nevertheless, this is still a lesson that needs to be taught and so often students make it to the end without a single teacher that did.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#144

Post by emmelaich » Tue, Apr 01, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #84

rapatel0 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good watch - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_%22Superman%22

If you like watching right-wing educational propaganda, sure.

These days, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_and_Deliver would be considered right wing propaganda.

It's based on the true story of a mathematics teacher in east L.A.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#145

Post by Lerc » Tue, Apr 01, 2025, 5:19 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #27

One of my Core Memories when it comes to science, science education, and education in general was in my high school physics class, where we had to do an experiment to determine the gravitational acceleration of Earth. This was done via the following mechanism: Roll a ball off of a standard classroom table. Use a 1990s wristwatch's stopwatch mechanism to start the clock when the ball rolls of the table. Stop the stopw…

I had a similar experience measuring gravity in high school. Our method was using a ticker timer.

One of these. https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/the-history-of-ticker-...

The inevitable happened, after the years of classroom abuse the timer provided enough friction that the falling object swung on the paper like a pendulum and slowly made its way to the ground over the course of about 5 seconds.

We analysed the meaningless dots on the paper and wrote up a calculation of gravity of 9.6m/s^2 attributing the 0.2ish to 'possible friction or accuracy of the timer'

This taught me more about science than I care to think about.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#146

Post by jerf » Tue, Apr 01, 2025, 5:22 PM UTC

WhitneyLand wrote: post #49

jerf wrote: post #27

One of my Core Memories when it comes to science, science education, and education in general was in my high school physics class, where we had to do an experiment to determine the gravitational acceleration of Earth. This was done via the following mechanism: Roll a ball off of a standard classroom table. Use a 1990s wristwatch's stopwatch mechanism to start the clock when the ball rolls of the table. Stop the stopw…

So did you let this go without protest? Why not escalate it if it was clearly so unreasonable? Sounds like there was more nuance to the story.

Because my policy in childhood was to bend like the willow and not break like the oak. Not phrased in those words, and not quite as consciously chosen as it is now, but it was my policy, and for the most part I stand by it. Modern me, looking back with an engineer's rather cold cost/benefits analysis, sees way more cost than any possible benefit, so I might refine my past self's reasons but I'd still take the same actions.

Fortunately, this was closer to a one-off problem in an otherwise acceptable class rather than a systematic issue.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#147

Post by timthorn » Tue, Apr 01, 2025, 5:22 PM UTC

sebzim4500 wrote: post #83

hydrogen7800 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Roll a ball off of a standard classroom table. Use a 1990s wristwatch's stopwatch mechanism to start the clock when the ball rolls of the table. Stop the stopwatch when the ball hits the floor. Our class had some kind of device that would either punch a hole, or make a mark on paper at a regular time interval. We attached a narrow strip of paper to the ball, and let it pull through the marking device as it fell from…

In the UK we called it ticket tape and it was terrible. The devices barely worked and they cause a bunch of friction so you end up calculating a value of 'g' that's off by like 30%.

I think officially, we called it ticker tape, as in stock ticker - it was originally used to record stock prices transmit by telegraph.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#148

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 01, 2025, 5:22 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #93

cratermoon wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you like watching right-wing educational propaganda, sure.

It wasn't received as right-wing propaganda at the time. Endorsed by Bill Gates and others less-informed to education research with leanings towards the left. But it is definitely anti-education and proposes solutions that aren't justified, like the right-wing-aligned push for chartered schools (which tend to be religious in nature, hence the wholesale gobbling for it by the rightwing). Stanford studies in 2009 & 201…

[deleted]

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#149

Post by eitland » Tue, Apr 01, 2025, 5:23 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #27

One of my Core Memories when it comes to science, science education, and education in general was in my high school physics class, where we had to do an experiment to determine the gravitational acceleration of Earth. This was done via the following mechanism: Roll a ball off of a standard classroom table. Use a 1990s wristwatch's stopwatch mechanism to start the clock when the ball rolls of the table. Stop the stopw…

Brings back memories!

In my case it was a slide on an air cushioned aluminum beam.

And the interesting part was that for some reason, if we pulled it up towards the top, behind some point it used shorter time to travel across the whole beam.

I put quite some effort into figuring out why, repeating it again and again, studied the beam to see if there was any irregularities, brainstormed on why this happened.

My physics teacher really liked that at least some of his students had dug into it (I think we weren't the only group) and made it very clear in the feedback (he did not mention who had gotten it wrong, just that some had observed this and looked into it instead of covering it up or throwing away the data we didn't like).

Didn't exactly enjoy school, but people like him made it a lot better.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#150

Post by stanford_labrat » Tue, Apr 01, 2025, 5:24 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #27

One of my Core Memories when it comes to science, science education, and education in general was in my high school physics class, where we had to do an experiment to determine the gravitational acceleration of Earth. This was done via the following mechanism: Roll a ball off of a standard classroom table. Use a 1990s wristwatch's stopwatch mechanism to start the clock when the ball rolls of the table. Stop the stopw…

> Right on up to professorships, this is how science really works.

Why I am making my exit from academia and research entirely as soon as I finish my PhD. The system is filled with wonderful, intelligent people but sadly simultaneously rotten to the core. It in fact, did not get better as I moved from undergrad to grad school.